English
10. The Discourse to Pāyāsi 406. Thus have I heard: At one time, the venerable Kumārakassapa, while wandering in Kosala with a large community of monks, with five hundred monks, arrived at a Kosalan town named Setabyā. There, the venerable Kumārakassapa dwelled in Setabyā, to the north of Setabyā, in the Simsapa Grove. Now at that time, Pāyāsi the chieftain resided in Setabyā, which was populous, with grass, wood, and water, and abundant with grain, a royal possession, given by King Pasenadi of Kosala, a royal gift, a brahmadeyya. The Story of Chieftain Pāyāsi 407. Now at that time, such a wicked view had arisen in Chieftain Pāyāsi: "There is no other world, there are no spontaneously arisen beings, there is no fruit or result of good and bad deeds." The brahmins and householders of Setabyā heard: "Indeed, friends, the ascetic Kumārakassapa, a disciple of the ascetic Gotama, while wandering in Kosala with a large community of monks, with five hundred monks, has arrived at Setabyā and is dwelling in Setabyā, to the north of Setabyā, in the Simsapa Grove. Indeed, such a good reputation has spread concerning that venerable Kumārakassapa: 'He is wise, skilled, intelligent, learned, a fluent speaker, with excellent ready wit, both senior and an arahant.' It is good, indeed, to see such arahants." Then the brahmins and householders of Setabyā, having left Setabyā, in groups and companies, proceeded northwards to the Simsapa Grove. 408. Now at that time, Chieftain Pāyāsi was resting during the day on the upper floor of his palace. Chieftain Pāyāsi saw the brahmins and householders of Setabyā, having left Setabyā, in groups and companies, proceeding northwards to the S seeing them, he addressed the charioteer: "What is this, good charioteer? The householder-brahmins of Setabyā, having left Setabyā, are going in groups, in companies, in throngs, facing north, towards the Siṃsapā Grove?" "There is, good sir, the ascetic Kumārakassapa, a disciple of the ascetic Gotama, who, wandering in Kosala, has arrived in Setabyā with a great community of monks, with five hundred monks. He is dwelling in Setabyā, to the north of Setabyā, in the Siṃsapā Grove. Indeed, concerning that venerable Kumārakassapa, such a good report has spread: 'He is wise, competent, intelligent, learned, a skilled speaker, of excellent wit, aged, and an Arahant.' They are going to see that venerable Kumārakassapa." "Then, good charioteer, go to where the householder-brahmins of Setabyā are. Having gone, tell the householder-brahmins of Setabyā this: 'Pāyāsi the chieftain says this: Please wait, sirs. Pāyāsi the chieftain will also go to see the ascetic Kumārakassapa.' Before the ascetic Kumārakassapa convinces the foolish, unwise householder-brahmins of Setabyā that 'there is another world, there are spontaneously arisen beings, there is fruit and result of good and bad deeds.' For there is no other world, good charioteer, there are no spontaneously arisen beings, there is no fruit and result of good and bad deeds." "Yes, good sir," the charioteer replied to Pāyāsi the chieftain. Then he went to where the householder-brahmins of Setabyā were. Having gone, he said this to the householder-brahmins of Setabyā: "Pāyāsi the chieftain says this: Please wait, sirs. Pāyāsi the chieftain will also go to see the ascetic Kumārakassapa." will go to see him." 409. Then indeed Pāyāsi, the chieftain, surrounded by the brahmins and householders of Setabyā, approached the Siṃsapā Grove, where the venerable Kumārakassapa was. Having approached, he exchanged greetings with the venerable Kumārakassapa, and after exchanging courteous and memorable talk, he sat down to one side. And some of the brahmins and householders of Setabyā, having saluted the venerable Kumārakassapa, sat down to one side; some exchanged greetings with the venerable Kumārakassapa; and after exchanging courteous and memorable talk, they sat down to one side. Some, having raised their joined hands towards the venerable Kumārakassapa, sat down to one side. Some, having announced their name and clan, sat down to one side. Some, remaining silent, sat down to one side. The Doctrine of Non-Existence 410. Seated to one side, Pāyāsi, the chieftain, said this to the venerable Kumārakassapa: "Indeed, good Kassapa, I am one who speaks thus, who holds this view: 'There is no other world, there are no spontaneously reborn beings, there is no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.'" "Chieftain, I have neither seen nor heard of anyone who speaks thus, who holds such a view. How indeed could one say this: 'There is no other world, there are no spontaneously reborn beings, there is no fruit or result of good and bad deeds'?" The Simile of the Moon and Sun 411. "In that case, chieftain, I will question you on this very point. You should answer as you deem fit. What do you think, chieftain? Are these moon and sun in this world or in another world? Are they gods or humans?" "Good Kassapa, these moon and sun are in another world, not in this one; they are gods, not humans." "By this reasoning too, chieftain, let it be thus for you: 'There is another world, there are spontaneously reborn beings, there is fruit and result of good and bad deeds.'" 412. "Even though good Kassapa says this, yet still..." Thus it occurs to me: ‘There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.’ “Is there, O Rājañña, a reason by which it occurs to you thus: ‘There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good and bad deeds’?” “There is, good Kassapa, a reason by which it occurs to me thus: ‘There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good and bad deeds’!” “How is that, O Rājañña?” “Here, good Kassapa, my friends, ministers, relatives, and kinsmen are killers of living beings, takers of what is not given, wrongdoers in sensual pleasures, liars, slanderers, harsh speakers, frivolous talkers, covetous, malevolent in mind, and of wrong view. Later, they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know: ‘They will not recover from this illness,’ I go to them and say this: ‘There are, sirs, some ascetics and brahmins who speak thus, who hold this view: “Those who are killers of living beings, takers of what is not given, wrongdoers in sensual pleasures, liars, slanderers, harsh speakers, frivolous talkers, covetous, malevolent in mind, and of wrong view, they, upon the breaking up of the body, after death, are reborn in a state of deprivation, a bad destination, a downfall, hell.” You, sirs, are killers of living beings, takers of what is not given, wrongdoers in sensual pleasures, liars, slanderers, harsh speakers, frivolous talkers, covetous, malevolent in mind, and of wrong view. If the words of those venerable ascetics and brahmins are true, you, upon the breaking up of the body, after death, will be reborn in a state of deprivation, a bad destination, a downfall, hell. If, sirs, upon the breaking up of the body, after death, you were to be reborn in a state of deprivation, a bad destination, a downfall, hell, then you should come back to me and report: “There is indeed another world, there are spontaneously born beings, there is fruit and result of good and bad deeds.” But you, sirs, to me, They are trustworthy, reliable, what the venerable ones have seen, it will be just as if I myself have seen it.' They, having assented to me with 'Good,' neither come back and report, nor do they send a messenger. This too, good Kassapa, is a reason, by which reason it occurs to me thus: 'There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit and result of good and bad deeds.'" The Simile of the Thief 413. "Then, O chieftain, I will question you about this. You should explain it as you deem fit. What do you think, O chieftain? Here, men might seize a thief, a wrongdoer, and show him to you, saying: 'This, venerable sir, is a thief, a wrongdoer; inflict upon him whatever punishment you wish.' You would say to them thus: 'Then, sirs, bind this man firmly with strong ropes, his arms behind his back, shave his head, and with a harsh-sounding drum, lead him from street to street, from crossroad to crossroad, then exit by the southern gate, and cut off his head at the execution ground south of the city.' They, having assented with 'Good,' would bind that man firmly with strong ropes, his arms behind his back, shave his head, and with a harsh-sounding drum, lead him from street to street, from crossroad to crossroad, then exit by the southern gate, and seat him at the execution ground south of the city. Would that thief obtain from the executioners: 'Wait a moment, venerable executioners, I have friends, ministers, relatives, blood-relations in such and such a village or town; let me go and visit them and return,' or would the executioners cut off his head even as he babbles?" "No, good Kassapa, that thief would not obtain from the executioners: 'Wait a moment, venerable executioners, I have friends, ministers, relatives, blood-relations in such and such a village or town; let me go and visit them and return.' Rather, ...the executioners would cut off his head while he was still babbling." "Now, O prince, that thief, that man, will not obtain from the human executioners: 'Wait a moment, good sirs, executioners, my friends, associates, relatives, and kinsmen are in such-and-such a village or town, until I go and point them out and return.' But will those friends, associates, relatives, and kinsmen, who are killers of living beings, takers of what is not given, given to sexual misconduct, liars, slanderers, harsh speakers, frivolous talkers, covetous, ill-willed, and of wrong view, having broken up the body, after death, reborn in a state of woe, a bad destination, a downfall, in hell, will they obtain from the guardians of hell: