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Proves to be without a miracle?" "Indeed, venerable sir, In this case, The statement of those recluses and brahmins Proves to be without a miracle." Three modes of self 428. 'There are, Poṭṭhapāda, three modes of self for me – The gross mode of self, The mind-made mode of self, The formless mode of self. And what, Poṭṭhapāda, is the gross mode of self? It is material, Made of the four great elements, Feeding on solid food. This is the gross mode of self. What is the mind-made mode of self? It is material, Mind-made, Complete with all limbs and faculties, With unimpaired senses. This is the mind-made mode of self. What is the formless mode of self? It is formless, Made of perception. This is the formless mode of self. 429. 'I teach the Dhamma, Poṭṭhapāda, For the abandoning of even the gross mode of self – So that for those who practice thus, Defiling states will be abandoned, Purifying states will increase, And having realized and attained The fullness and abundance of wisdom By their own direct knowledge In this very life, they will dwell. It might be, Poṭṭhapāda, that you think – 'Defiling states will be abandoned, Purifying states will increase, And having realized and attained The fullness and abundance of wisdom By one's own direct knowledge In this very life, one will dwell, But it is a painful dwelling.' But, Poṭṭhapāda, this should not be seen thus. Defiling states will indeed be abandoned, And purifying states will increase, And having realized and attained The fullness and abundance of wisdom By one's own direct knowledge In this very life, one will dwell. there will be joy, and rapture, and tranquility, and mindfulness, and clear comprehension, and a pleasant abiding. 430. “Indeed, Poṭṭhapāda, I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of even the mind-made self-attainment, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and abundance of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, you will abide. It might occur to you, Poṭṭhapāda, thus: ‘Defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and abundance of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, one will abide, but it is a painful abiding.’ But, Poṭṭhapāda, this should not be seen thus. Indeed, defiling states will be abandoned, and purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and abundance of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, one will abide, and there will be delight, and joy, and tranquility, and mindfulness, and clear comprehension, and a pleasant abiding. 431. “Indeed, Poṭṭhapāda, I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of even the formless self-attainment, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and abundance of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, you will abide. It might occur to you, Poṭṭhapāda, thus: ‘Defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and abundance of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, one will abide, but it is a painful abiding.’ But, Poṭṭhapāda, this should not be seen thus. Indeed, defiling states will be abandoned, and purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and abundance of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, one will abide, i, there will be joy, and delight, and tranquility, and mindfulness, and clear comprehension, and a pleasant abiding. 432. ‘‘If others, Poṭṭhapāda, were to ask us thus: ‘Which, friends, is that gross self-acquisition, for the abandoning of which you teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and expansion of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, you will abide?’ When asked thus, we would answer them thus: ‘This, friends, is that gross self-acquisition, for the abandoning of which we teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and expansion of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, you will abide.’ 433. ‘‘If others, Poṭṭhapāda, were to ask us thus: ‘Which, friends, is that mind-made self-acquisition, for the abandoning of which you teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and expansion of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, you will abide?’ When asked thus, we would answer them thus: ‘This, friends, is that mind-made self-acquisition, for the abandoning of which we teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized and attained the fullness and expansion of wisdom by your own direct knowledge in this very life, you will abide.’ 434. ‘‘If others, Poṭṭhapāda, were to ask us thus: ‘Which, friends, is that formless self-acquisition, for the abandoning of which you teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and the fullness of wisdom and fullness, in this very life, having realized for yourselves, attained, you will dwell.' To them, being thus asked, we would thus answer: 'This, friends, is that formless self-attainment, for the abandonment of which we teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and you will dwell, having realized for yourselves, attained, the perfection and fullness of wisdom in this very life.' "What do you think, Potthapada, would not such a statement be miraculous?" "Indeed, venerable sir, such a statement would be miraculous." 435. "Just as, Potthapada, a man might build a ladder to ascend a palace, right at the foot of that very palace. And they might say to him: 'Good sir, the palace you are building a ladder to ascend, do you know that palace, whether it is to the east, or to the south, or to the west, or to the north, whether it is high, or low, or medium?' He would say: 'This, friends, is that palace, to ascend which I am building a ladder, right at the foot of that very palace.'" "What do you think, Potthapada, would not such a statement by that man be miraculous?" "Indeed, venerable sir, such a statement by that man would be miraculous." 436. "Even so, Potthapada, if others were to ask us thus: 'Which, friends, is that gross self-attainment... etc.... Which, friends, is that mind-made self-attainment... etc.... Which, friends, is that formless self-attainment, for the abandonment of which you teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice accordingly, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and you will dwell, having realized for yourselves, attained, the perfection and fullness of wisdom in this very life?'" you will attain and abide.' To them, being thus asked, we would thus declare: 'This, friends, is that formless self-attainment, for the abandoning of which we teach the Dhamma, so that for those who practice thus, defiling states will be abandoned, purifying states will increase, and having realized for yourselves with direct knowledge in this very life the fullness and abundance of wisdom, you will attain and abide.' "What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, would not the teaching thus be miraculous?" "Indeed, venerable sir, the teaching thus would be miraculous." 437. When this was said, Citta Hatthisāriputta said to the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, at the time when there is gross self-attainment, at that time, mental self-attainment is void for him, formless self-attainment is void; or rather, his gross self-attainment is true at that time. At the time when there is mental self-attainment, at that time, gross self-attainment is void for him, formless self-attainment is void; or rather, his mental self-attainment is true at that time. At the time when there is formless self-attainment, at that time, gross self-attainment is void for him, mental self-attainment is void; or rather, his formless self-attainment is true at that time." "Citta, at the time when there is gross self-attainment, at that time, it is not reckoned as mental self-attainment, nor is it reckoned as formless self-attainment; it is reckoned only as gross self-attainment at that time. At the time when there is mental self-attainment, at that time, it is not reckoned as gross self-attainment, nor is it reckoned as formless self-attainment; it is reckoned only as mental self-attainment at that time. At the time when there is formless self- there is a self-acquisition, at that time, it is not reckoned as a coarse self-acquisition, nor is it reckoned as a mind-made self-acquisition; it is reckoned as an immaterial self-acquisition at that time. "If, Citta, they were to ask you thus – 'Were you in the past, were you not not? Will you be in the future, will you not not be? Are you now, are you not not?' How would you, Citta, answer when asked thus?" "If, venerable sir, they were to ask me thus – 'Were you in the past, were you not not? Will you be in the future, will you not not be? Are you now, are you not not?' When asked thus, venerable sir, I would answer thus – 'I was in the past, I was not not; I will be in the future, I will not not be; I am now, I am not not.' When asked thus, venerable sir, I would answer thus." "But if, Citta, they were to ask you thus – 'That self-acquisition of yours which was in the past,