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English version: Question: When you say 'Yannapo is a new garment,' (Yannapo is a new garment: a saying, referring to new clothes) the 'new' here doesn't refer to the number 'nine,' right? Answer: No. Question: Then what is called 'new'? Answer: Because it is made of Yannapo wool, it is called 'new'. Question: Actually, the number of wool fibers is infinite, why do you only say 'Yannapo wool'? Answer: I have already said before that 'new' is just a name, 'Yannapo' does not refer to a quantity. Question: Now I know that this garment is yours, why do you say it is not your garment? Answer: I said 'new garment,' I didn't say that this thing is not yours. Question: Now I clearly see that you are wearing this garment, why do you say you are not wearing clothes? Answer: I said 'new garment,' I didn't say I wasn't wearing clothes. This is called 'fallacious reason' (fallacious reason: seemingly a reason, but actually untenable). It is also called 'fault arising from following words' (fault arising from following words: grasping a certain word in the other party's words, distorting the understanding, and thus producing fallacies). There is also a kind of 'fault arising from following words,' such as when you say 'burning a mountain'. Question: Actually, only the grass and trees are burned, how can you say burning a mountain? This is called 'fault arising from following words.' Even all dharmas are like this. There is also a kind of 'fault arising from following words,' there are two kinds in total: one is as mentioned before, and the other is grasping the concepts of 'same' and 'different' to produce fallacies. For example, you say that 'conditioned dharmas' (conditioned dharmas: things that are formed by the combination of causes and conditions, and will change) are all empty and extinguished, just like space. Question: If so, then 'conditioned' and 'space' are both empty, dharmas without self-nature, then they are the same as space. This is called 'fault arising from sameness and difference' (fault arising from sameness and difference: confusing the concepts of same and different, thereby producing fallacies). Question: Why is it called 'arising'? Answer: Because of 'existence' it is called 'arising.' For example, clay has the nature of a pot, so it can produce a pot. Question: If clay has the nature of a pot, then clay is a pot, it should not need the combination of a potter, wheel, and rope to produce it. If clay produces a pot because of 'existence,' then water is also 'existence,' it should also produce a pot. If water is 'existence' but cannot produce a pot, then how can clay produce a pot alone? This is called 'fault arising from seeking words in sameness and difference' (fault arising from seeking words in sameness and difference: grasping the concepts of 'same' and 'different', distorting the understanding, and thus producing fallacies). Question: What is the appearance of 'fallacious reason of arising doubt' (fallacious reason of arising doubt: a wrong inference due to insufficient conditions)? Answer: For example, there is a tree stump that looks like a person. If you see it at night, you will think: Is it a tree stump? Or a person? This is called 'fallacious reason of arising doubt'. Question: What is called 'fallacious reason of being out of time' (fallacious reason of being out of time: the reason given is outdated and untenable)? Answer: For example, you say 'sound is permanent' (permanent: eternal and unchanging), because the 'Vedas' (Vedas: the fundamental scriptures of ancient Indian Brahmanism) come from sound, so they are also permanent. Question: You have not yet established the cause and condition of sound being permanent, how can you... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 言韦陀常乎。
Chinese
答曰。如虚空无形色故常。声亦无形是故为常。言虽后说义亦成就。 难曰。此语过时。如舍烧已尽方以水救。汝亦如是。是名过时。问曰。类同云何。答曰。我与身异故我是常。如瓶异虚空故瓶无常。是名类同。 难曰。若我异身而名常者。瓶亦异身。瓶应名为常。若瓶异身犹无常者。我虽异身云何常乎。是名同类。 问曰说同云何。 答曰。如言虚空是常无有触故。意识亦尔。是名说同。问曰。何名言异。答曰。如言五尘无常为根觉故。四大亦尔。是故无常。难曰。龟毛盐香是无所有。而为意识所得岂无常耶。是名言异。问曰。相违云何。 答曰。相违二种。一喻相违。二理相违。如言我常无形碍故如牛。是名喻违。理违者。如婆罗门统理王业作屠猎等教。刹利种坐禅念定。是名理违。如此二法。愚者不解谓为真实。是名相违。问曰。何者名为不相违耶。 答曰。异上二法名不相违。是名似因。 明负处品第二 论者言。已说如上八种论法。复有众多负法。今当宣说。问曰。何名语法。 答曰。如言四大是假名。所以者何。为色等法之所成故。复有人言四大实有。何以知之。坚是地性。乃至动是风性故知为实。更相违返便生诤讼。 现代汉语译本 问：韦陀（Veda，古印度经典）是常住不变的吗？ 答：如同虚空没有形状和颜色，所以是常住的。声音也没有形状，所以是常住的。虽然是后来才说的，但道理也是成立的。 难：这种说法已经过时了。就像房子烧完了才用水去救火一样，你说的也是这样，这叫做过时。 问：类同（相似）是什么意思？ 答：我和身体不同，所以我是常住的。如同瓶子和虚空不同，所以瓶子是无常的。这叫做类同。 难：如果我和身体不同，就可以说是常住的，那么瓶子也和身体不同，瓶子也应该说是常住的。如果瓶子和身体不同仍然是无常的，那么我虽然和身体不同，为什么是常住的呢？这叫做同类。 问：说同（相同）是什么意思？ 答：比如，说虚空是常住的，因为它没有触觉。意识也是这样。这叫做说同。 问：什么叫做言异（不同）？ 答：比如，说五尘（色、声、香、味、触）是无常的，因为它们是根觉（感官的觉知）的来源。四大（地、水、火、风）也是这样，所以是无常的。难：龟毛、盐的味道是不存在的，但是意识可以感知到，难道不是无常的吗？这叫做言异。 问：相违（矛盾）是什么意思？ 答：相违有两种：一是比喻相违，二是理相违。比如，说我是常住的，因为我没有形体障碍，就像牛一样。这叫做比喻相违。理相违是说，婆罗门（Brahmana，印度教祭司）管理国家政务，从事屠宰狩猎等行业，刹利（Kshatriya，古印度武士阶层）种姓的人却在坐禅入定。这叫做理相违。像这两种情况，愚笨的人不明白，认为是真的。这叫做相违。 问：什么叫做不相违呢？ 答：和上面两种情况不同的，叫做不相违。这叫做似因（似乎是原因）。 明负处品第二 论者说：已经说了上面八种论辩方法，还有很多种失败的情况，现在应当说明。问：什么叫做语法（言语规则）？ 答：比如，说四大是假名（只是一个名称），为什么呢？因为是由色等法组成的。又有人说，四大是真实存在的，为什么知道呢？坚硬是地性，乃至运动是风性，所以知道是真实存在的。这样互相违背，就会产生争论。
English
English version Question: Is Veda (Veda, ancient Indian scriptures) permanent? Answer: Like the void, which has no form or color, it is permanent. Sound also has no form, therefore it is permanent. Although it is said later, the principle is also established. Objection: This statement is outdated. It's like trying to put out a fire with water after the house has already burned down. What you're saying is the same, and it's called outdated. Question: What does 'similarity' (类同) mean? Answer: I am different from the body, therefore I am permanent. Like a bottle is different from the void, therefore a bottle is impermanent. This is called 'similarity'. Objection: If I am different from the body and can be said to be permanent, then the bottle is also different from the body, and the bottle should also be said to be permanent. If the bottle is different from the body and is still impermanent, then although I am different from the body, why am I permanent? This is called 'same kind'. Question: What does 'sameness in statement' (说同) mean? Answer: For example, saying that the void is permanent because it has no touch. Consciousness is also like this. This is called 'sameness in statement'. Question: What is called 'difference in statement' (言异)? Answer: For example, saying that the five skandhas (色、声、香、味、触) are impermanent because they are the source of root awareness (感官的觉知). The four great elements (地、水、火、风) are also like this, so they are impermanent. Objection: Turtle hair and the taste of salt do not exist, but consciousness can perceive them, isn't that impermanent? This is called 'difference in statement'. Question: What does 'contradiction' (相违) mean? Answer: There are two kinds of contradictions: one is contradiction in metaphor, and the other is contradiction in principle. For example, saying that I am permanent because I have no physical obstacles, like a cow. This is called contradiction in metaphor. Contradiction in principle is saying that a Brahmana (Brahmana, Hindu priest) manages state affairs and engages in slaughtering and hunting, while a Kshatriya (Kshatriya, ancient Indian warrior class) is meditating and entering samadhi. This is called contradiction in principle. Like these two situations, foolish people do not understand and think they are real. This is called contradiction. Question: What is called 'non-contradiction'? Answer: What is different from the above two situations is called non-contradiction. This is called 'seeming cause' (似乎是原因). Chapter Two on Demonstrating Defeated Positions The debater says: The above eight methods of debate have been explained, and there are many kinds of failures, which should now be explained. Question: What is called 'grammar' (言语规则)? Answer: For example, saying that the four great elements are nominal (只是一个名称). Why? Because they are composed of form and other dharmas. Someone else says that the four great elements are real. How do you know? Hardness is the nature of earth, and movement is the nature of wind, so you know they are real. If they contradict each other, disputes will arise. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 如有言地是成身因缘。余大亦尔。
Chinese
难曰。地等亦能成一切物。云何而言唯成身乎。是名非语。若不如是是名是语。问曰。何为名负。 答曰。如言声常无形色故如空。 难曰。声虽无形而为根觉。有对有碍如瓶造作。而虚空性非是作法。何得为喻。此名负义立曰。瓶是有形可为无常。声无形法何得为喻。 难曰。声虽异瓶而为根觉为耳所闻。是故无常。问曰。何等之义不堕负处。 答曰。诸行与识作故无常。涅槃非作故常。如此之言句味真正。名非负处。问曰。何者之言而可难耶。 答曰。若语颠倒立因不正引喻不同。此则可难。如言想能断结。问者曰。云何以想便断结耶。以不先言智从想发直言想故。此语颠倒则为可难。 问曰。何因缘故重说此语。 答曰。欲令人知立无执义必堕负处故说。复次应问不问。应答不答。三说法要不令他解。自三说法而不别知。皆名负处。又共他论彼义短阙而不觉知。余人语曰。此义错谬汝不知乎。即堕负处。又他正义而为生过。亦堕负处。又有说者。众人悉解而独不悟。亦堕负处。问亦如是。如此负处。是议论之大棘刺为深过患。应当觉知速宜远离。 问曰。问有几种。 答曰。有三种。一说同。二义同。三因同 现代汉语译本： 如果说地是构成身体的因缘（hetupratyaya，根本原因和条件），其他大的元素也是如此。 提问：地等元素也能构成一切事物，为什么只说是构成身体呢？这是不正确的说法。如果不是这样说，那就是正确的说法。提问：什么是被称为‘负’（parajaya，失败）的情况？ 回答：例如说声音是常住的，因为它没有形状和颜色，就像虚空一样。 反驳：声音虽然没有形状，但它是根识（indriyavijnana，感官意识）的觉知对象，有对立和阻碍，就像瓶子是被制造出来的一样。而虚空的性质不是被制造出来的。怎么能用虚空来比喻声音呢？这叫做‘负’。进一步说，瓶子是有形状的，可以被认为是无常的。声音没有形状，怎么能用瓶子来比喻呢？ 反驳：声音虽然不同于瓶子，但它是根识的觉知对象，能被耳朵听到，所以是无常的。提问：什么样的说法不会落入‘负’的境地？ 回答：诸行（samskara，一切有为法）与识（vijnana，意识）是造作出来的，所以是无常的。涅槃（nirvana，寂灭）不是造作出来的，所以是常住的。这样的话语意义纯正，不属于‘负’的境地。提问：什么样的言论是可以被反驳的呢？ 回答：如果言语颠倒，所立的因（hetu，理由）不正确，引用的比喻不同，这些都是可以被反驳的。例如说，‘想’（samjna，表象）能够断除烦恼结（klesabandhana，烦恼的束缚）。提问者会问：‘怎么能用想来断除烦恼结呢？’因为没有事先说明智慧是从想产生的，而是直接说想能断除烦恼结，这种言语颠倒就是可以被反驳的。 提问：因为什么因缘要重复说这些话呢？ 回答：想要让人知道，确立没有执著的意义必然会落入‘负’的境地，所以才这样说。此外，应该问的不问，应该答的不答；用三种说法要点（trayasiksa，戒定慧三学）却不让别人理解；自己用三种说法要点却不能分别了解，这些都叫做‘负’。还有，与他人辩论，对方的义理有缺点却不察觉，别人说：‘这个义理是错误的，你不知道吗？’就落入了‘负’的境地。还有，把他人正确的义理说成是过失，也落入‘负’的境地。还有，有的人说，众人都理解了，唯独自己不明白，也落入‘负’的境地。提问也是如此。这些‘负’的境地，是议论中的大荆棘，是深刻的过患，应当觉知，迅速远离。 提问：提问有几种？ 回答：有三种。一是说法相同，二是义理相同，三是因相同。