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I am better prepared to do so now, from having written down, as far as my memory enabled me, the longer among the speeches, with the names of the speakers opposite them ; some parts, however, I have only filled up roughly ; nor can I tell you precisely how the dialogue arose, since it appeared to have gone some way when I first ventured to become a silent listener. Some extraordinary cir- cumstance must have brought together so many men remarkable, each in his particular kind. There were two natives of Great Britain, both of whom I imagine must have been priests ; but one was much the more venerable of the two, and when he spoke, his language had a tone of calm authority. His name was said to be Mountain. His companion, who was called Blan- combe, treated him with great deference, and seemed glad to learn from him ; but he himself, the younger I mean, was more skilfrd in arguing, and undertook the greater part of the dialogue. He seemed to agree, as far as possible, with his opponents, as if he were in search of some common ground upon which they M. P. 1 2 CHARACTERS OF DIALOGUE. might meet. It happened luckily, or as I now think, by some divine ordinance, that among those who took part in the dis- cussion were two of the wisest men who could easily be foimd in India. One was a Dandi of the Brahmanical caste, and of the greatest reputation for sanctity and learning, called Vidydchd- rya. He had never in all his life done injury to anything that breathed, though some Englishman once tried to persuade him that in the water which he drank were swarms of animate beings ; this however Vidy dchdrya denied to be true, and said the appearance was an illusion. He had been married, and had educated his children at Benares, but was then a Vairdgij or rather, as I think, a Sanydsi^ having entered upon that advanced stage when he practised little besides religious contemplation. In other respects he embodied more diligently in his life tlie observances of the religious books, with which he was well acquainted, than is now usual even among the Brahmans ; and no one could either better explain the nature of his religion, or shew a brighter example of its practice. What circumstance had now brought him so far south as Conjeveram, I do not know; but possibly it may have been some mission, either of friendship or controversy, regarding the second Hindd present on this occasion. This other was a Chiru, or teacher of great dignity, who presided over a Matha, or a kind of College, some- where in the neighbourhood, containing a vast nimiber of dis- ciples. His name was Saddnanda, and he also enjoyed a high reputation, though rather for learning than for the devotion which was ascribed to Vidydchdrya. But you will be able to judge him by his speeches. Together with these, although I somewhat wondered to find him in their company, was a con- ductor of the worship of Buddha, who had come all the way from Nepaul, partly, as he said, to confer with his brethren in Ceylon about the diflferences in their sacred books ; but partly, as I suspect, to mediate, or re-arrange, matters in some religious uneasiness of a half political kind, with a dispute about the genuineness of certain relics, which had sprung up in the island. BAUDDHAS DISCLAIM MATERIALISM. 3 At any rate he had now returned to the continent^ haying trans- acted whatever may have been his business, and he was the speaker who happened first to attract my attention. He seemed to be called, if I understood aright, Saugata Mdnt. But I have forgotten to mention one other person, who occasionally took part in the dialogue. This was an European, named Wolff, but not an Englishman, though he had been employed by your Government to make some inquiry into the causes of the cholera. He was therefore, I suppose^ a physician, and was certainly a very inge- nious and observant person; but withal somewhat conceited, as I fieuicied, and with traces of an irritable restlessness in his manner. But the speaker, as I said, upon my first listening, was Saur gata Mdnu It would seem that some one had charged him and other Bauddhas with being Sarvorvaindsicas, or holding the doc- trine of " total perishableness ; " as if he thought that all bodies perished as soon as they were decomposed, and all life or soul, being merely a product of their organisation, flitted away. But such a doctrine he utterly disclaimed ; saying, " We do indeed believe that all bodies which are objects of sensuous perception are themselves merely aggregates of atoms; and the atoms of which they are formed are constantly changing their places, some falling away and others being joined on ; the bodies therefore consisting of such changeable materials, are themselves changed; and whatever is changed, we can never know to exist, except so long as it falls under our perception ; so that the existence of all material objects is not unreasonably said by one of our sects (the Vaibh^hicas) to depend only on perception." "Is that then your own opinion?" asked Blancombe. " Not exactly," replied the Saugata ; " for I myself, being a Sautrintica, should rather say that objects themselves are not so much seen as their exist- ence is inferred from the outward manifestations which strike our senses. As from seeing a tree grow we may infer a root, so from seeing a certain outside show I infer a particular arrangement of atoms to be for the time lying imdemeath ; but when the show vanishes, I have no longer reason to believe in anything under- 1—2 4 EXISTENCE OF MATTER. lying: existence therefore changes, and objects no longer per- ceived ought not to be said to exist." " It is evident, then," here said Vidydchdrya, interposing, "that the result of the doctrine which lias been explained is total perishableness, and Sancara had reason on his side, when, on this as on other points, he refuted the whole system of the Bauddhas. ' For that wliicli is apprehended/ he said, ' such as a wall, a jar, or a cloth, can- not be unexistent ; nor does the existence of objects cease w^hen the apprehension does so. Nor is it like a dream, for the con- dition of dreaming and waking is quite diflFerent.' According to what the Saugata has told us, an object, such as a table, would exist while a person was in the room observing it ; but on his going out it would cease to exist, and again on his return recover existence. Moreover, since the Saugata believes not only all perceptible objects but our own organs of perception to consist entirely of these fluctuating atoms, it is evident that his doctrine would never allow us to be certain whether anything existed or did not exist. The whole doctrine, when tried and sifted, crumbles like a well sunk in loose sand." " You think, then, my venerable friend," said Blancombe, " that objects around us have a real existence, independently of their being perceived?" "We are taught," replied Vidydchdrya, "in our sacred books, as interpreted by Sancara, that at least the existence of objects is not uncertain, or brought to an entire end, because they are composed of atoms. Sancara also remarks, that the doctrine of atoms is to be utterly rejected, never having been received by any venerable person, as the Sanchya doctrine of a plastic matter has been in part by Menu and other sages." " I should be glad," returned Blancombe, " to learn from you hereafter the mode in which Sancara reftited other Bauddha doctrines; but at present I agree with you, that we need not doubt of the external world having some kind of existence Only it is not clear to me whether the Saugata will assent to all that you have said." MATTER ATOMIC. 5 " Certainly," said the Saugata, " I should feel a difficulty in doing so. But indeed I fear that I may not have explained what I wished to say properly ; otherwise I do not understand how the Achiirya could assert that no venerable person had ever received the doctrine of atoms : for our opinion on this head does not differ very essentially from that which Candda has rendered famous throughout India; while again his school, the Vais^- shica, is confirmed in many points by the Nydya of 66tama.