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The discourse on the transition of jhānas 813. From jhana to jhana does one transition? Yes. From the first jhana to the third jhana does one transition? It should not be said thus... From jhana to jhana does one transition? Yes. From the second jhana to the fourth jhana does one transition? It should not be said thus... From the first jhana to the second jhana does one transition? Yes. Is that turning towards... aspiration for the arising of the first jhana, the same turning towards... aspiration for the arising of the second jhana? It should not be said thus... From the first jhana, the seco- When a jhana transitions, should it not be said: “The turning towards, the attention, the aspiration for the arising of the first jhana, that same is the turning towards, the attention, the aspiration for the arising of the second jhana” Yes. Does the second jhana arise for one who does not turn towards it, does not attend to it, does not aspire to it? It should not be said so. Does not the second jhana arise for one who turns towards it, attends to it, aspires to it? Yes. If the second jhana arises for one who turns towards it, attends to it, aspires to it, then surely it should not be said: “From the first jhana, the second jhana transitions.” Does the second jhana transition from the first jhana? Yes. Does the first jhana arise for one who attends to the danger in sensual pleasures? Yes. Does the second jhana arise for one who attends to the danger in sensual pleasures? It should not be said so. Is the first jhana with initial application and sustained application? Yes. Is the second jhana with initial application and sustained application? It should not be said so. Does the second jhana transition from the first jhana? Yes. Is that same first jhana that second jhana? It should not be said so. 814. Does the third jhana transition from the second jhana? Yes. The turning towards, the attention, the aspiration for the arising of the second jhana, is that same the turning towards, the attention, the aspiration for the arising of the third jhana? It should not be said so. When the third jhana transitions from the second jhana, should it not be said: “The turning towards, the attention, the aspiration for the arising of the second jhana, that same is the turning towards, the attention, the aspiration for the arising of the third jhana”? Yes. Does the third jhana arise for one who does not turn towards it, does not attend to it, does not aspire to it? It should not be said so. Does not the third jhana arise for one who turns towards it, attends to it, aspires to it? Yes. If the third jhana arises for one who turns towards it, attends to it, aspires to it, then surely it should not be said: “From the second jhana, the third jhana transitions.” From the second jhana, does one transition to the third jhana? Yes. Does the second jhana arise for one who attends to the danger in applied thought and sustained thought? Yes. Does the third jhana arise for one who attends to the danger in applied thought and sustained thought? It should not be said thus... Is the second jhana accompanied by rapture? Yes. Is the third jhana accompanied by rapture? It should not be said thus... From the second jhana, does one transition to the third jhana? Yes. Is that very second jhana the third jhana? It should not be said thus... 815. From the third jhana, does one transition to the fourth jhana? Yes. Is the turning of attention... or aspiration for the arising of the third jhana, the same turning of attention... or aspiration for the arising of the fourth jhana? It should not be said thus... From the third jhana, one transitions to the fourth jhana, but should it not be said: "Is the turning of attention... or aspiration for the arising of the third jhana, the same turning of attention... or aspiration for the arising of the fourth jhana?" Yes. Does the fourth jhana arise for one who does not turn attention... or does not aspire? It should not be said thus... Does not the fourth jhana arise for one who turns attention... or aspires? Yes. If the fourth jhana arises for one who turns attention... or aspires, then it should not be said: "From the third jhana, one transitions to the fourth jhana." From the third jhana, does one transition to the fourth jhana? Yes. Does the third jhana arise for one who attends to the danger in rapture? Yes. Does the fourth jhana arise for one who attends to the danger in rapture? It should not be said thus... Is the third jhana accompanied by pleasure? Yes. Is the fourth jhana accompanied by pleasure? It should not be said thus... From the third jhana, does one transition to the fourth jhana? Yes. Is that very third jhana the fourth jhana? It should not be said thus... 816. Should it not be said: "From jhana, one transitions to jhana"? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – ‘Here, monks, a monk, quite secluded from sensual pleasures… (and so on)… enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana’? Is there such a discourse? Yes. Then one passes from jhana to jhana. The discussion on passing from jhana to jhana is concluded. 18. The Eighteenth Chapter (183) 7. Discussion on the Interval between Jhanas 817. Is there an interval between jhanas? Yes. Is there an interval between contacts… (and so on)… is there an interval between perceptions? It should not be said so… (and so on)…. Is there an interval between jhanas? Yes. Is there an interval between the second jhana and the third jhana? It should not be said so… (and so on)…. Is there an interval between jhanas? Yes. Is there an interval between the third jhana and the fourth jhana? It should not be said so… (and so on)…. Is there no interval between the second jhana and the third jhana? Yes. If there is no interval between the second jhana and the third jhana, then it should certainly not be said – ‘there is an interval between jhanas’. Is there no interval between the third jhana and the fourth jhana? Yes. If there is no interval between the third jhana and the fourth jhana, then it should certainly not be said – ‘there is an interval between jhanas’. 818. Is there an interval between the first jhana and the second jhana? Yes. Is there an interval between the second jhana and the third jhana? It should not be said so… (and so on)…. Is there an interval between the first jhana and the second jhana? Yes. Is there an interval between the third jhana and the fourth jhana? It should not be said so… (and so on)…. Is there no interval between the second jhana and the third jhana? Yes. Is there no interval between the first jhana and the second jhana? It should not be so should be said... Between the third jhāna and the fourth jhāna, is there no jhāna-interval? Yes. Between the first jhāna and the second jhāna, is there no jhāna-interval? It should not be said thus... 819. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, a jhāna-interval? Yes. Is concentration with initial application and sustained application a jhāna-interval? It should not be said thus... Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, a jhāna-interval? Yes. Is concentration without initial application and without sustained application a jhāna-interval? It should not be said thus... Is concentration with initial application and sustained application not a jhāna-interval? Yes. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, not a jhāna-interval? It should not be said thus... Is concentration without initial application and without sustained application not a jhāna-interval? Yes. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, not a jhāna-interval? It should not be said thus... 820. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, between two arisen jhānas? Yes. But when concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, is present, is the first jhāna ceased and the second jhāna arisen? Yes. If, when concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, is present, the first jhāna has ceased and the second jhāna has arisen, then it should not be said – "concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, is a jhāna-interval between two arisen jhānas." 821. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, not a jhāna-interval? Yes. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, the first jhāna... the second jhāna... the third jhāna... the fourth jhāna? It should not be said thus. Therefore, concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, is a jhāna-interval. 822. Is concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, a jhāna-interval? Yes. But were not three concentrations declared by the Blessed One – concentration with initial application and sustained application, concentration without initial application, with sustained application only, and concentration without initial application and without sustained application? Yes. If three concentrations were declared by the Blessed One – concentration with initial application... without... Investigation is concentration, but it should not be said: "Concentration without initial application and with sustained application is an intermediate jhana." The discourse on intermediate jhana is concluded. 18. The Eighteenth Chapter (184) 8. Discourse on "Does one hear sound?" 823. Does one who has attained hear sound? Yes. Does one who has attained see forms with the eye...? (etc.) ...with the ear...? (etc.) ...with the nose...? (etc.) ...with the tongue...? (etc.) ...with the body touch tangibles? It should not be said so... (etc.) Does one who has attained hear sound? Yes. Is one who has attained endowed with ear-consciousness? It should not be said so.