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one who has done what is to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own true goal, one whose fetters of existence are exhausted, one who is rightly liberated by perfect knowledge, one who has lifted the cross-bar, one whose moat is filled, one who has pulled out the stake, one who is without a bolt, noble, one who has lowered the banner, one who has laid down the burden, one who is unbound, one who has perfectly conquered the victory, for him, suffering is fully understood, the origin is abandoned, cessation is realized, the path is developed, what is to be directly known is directly known, what is to be fully understood is fully understood, what is to be abandoned is abandoned, what is to be developed is developed... what is to be realized is realized." "By one-fourth, what is to be realized is not realized?" "It should not be said thus..." "By the vision of the origin... by the vision of cessation... by the vision of the path, what does he abandon?" "He abandons material passion, immaterial passion, conceit, restlessness, ignorance, and the defilements associated with them, by one-fourth." "By one-fourth, he is an Arahant, by one-fourth, he is not an Arahant, by one-fourth, having attained Arahantship, having gained, having reached, having realized, he dwells having entered upon it, he dwells having touched it with the body, by one-fourth, he dwells not having touched it with the body, by one-fourth, he is free from passion... free from hatred... free from delusion... one who has done what is to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own true goal, one whose fetters of existence are exhausted, one who is rightly liberated by perfect knowledge, one who has lifted the cross-bar, one whose moat is filled, one who has pulled out the stake, one who is without a bolt, noble, one who has lowered the banner, one who has laid down the burden, one who is unbound, one who has perfectly conquered the victory, for him, suffering is fully understood, the origin is abandoned, cessation is realized, the path is developed, what is to be directly known is directly known, what is to be fully understood is fully understood," Known, What should be abandoned is abandoned, What should be developed is developed... What should be realized is realized. Is the fourth part to be realized not realized? It should not be said so... 344. A person practicing for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, Is he said to be practicing when seeing suffering? Yes. When suffering is seen, is he said to be established in the fruit? It should not be said so. When seeing the origin... When seeing cessation, is he said to be practicing? Yes. When cessation is seen, is he said to be established in the fruit? It should not be said so. A person practicing for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, Is he said to be practicing when seeing the path? When the path is seen, is he said to be established in the fruit? Yes. Is he said to be practicing when seeing suffering? When suffering is seen, is he said to be established in the fruit? It should not be said so... Is he said to be practicing when seeing the path? When the path is seen, is he said to be established in the fruit? Yes. When seeing the origin... When seeing cessation, is he said to be practicing? When cessation is seen, is he said to be established in the fruit? It should not be said so... A person practicing for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, Is he said to be practicing when seeing suffering? When suffering is seen, should it not be said: "He is established in the fruit"? Yes. Is he said to be practicing when seeing the path? When the path is seen, should it not be said: "He is established in the fruit"? It should not be said so... When seeing the origin... When seeing cessation, is he said to be practicing? When cessation is seen, should it not be said: "He is established in the fruit"? Yes. Is he said to be "practicing" when seeing the path? When the path is seen, should it not be said: "He is established in the fruit"? It should not be said so... A person practicing for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, Is he said to be practicing when seeing suffering? When suffering is seen, should it not be said: "He is established in the fruit..." Is it said to be so? Yes. Is the seeing of suffering useless? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... One seeing the origin... (etc.)... One seeing cessation is said to be one who has entered the path, when cessation is seen, should it not be said – "is said to be one who stands in the fruit"? Yes. Is the seeing of cessation useless? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... When suffering is seen, are the four noble truths seen? Yes. Is the truth of suffering the four noble truths? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... When the form aggregate is seen as impermanent, are the five aggregates seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the form aggregate the five aggregates? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... When the eye-base is seen as impermanent, are the twelve bases seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the eye-base the twelve bases? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... When the eye-element is seen as impermanent, are the eighteen elements seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the eye-element the eighteen elements? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... When the eye-faculty is seen as impermanent, are the twenty-two faculties seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the eye-faculty the twenty-two faculties? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... Does one realize the fruit of stream-entry with four knowledges? Yes. Are there four fruits of stream-entry? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... Does one realize the fruit of stream-entry with eight knowledges? Yes. Are there eight fruits of stream-entry? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... Does one realize the fruit of stream-entry with twelve knowledges? Yes. Are there twelve fruits of stream-entry? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... Does one realize the fruit of stream-entry with forty-four knowledges? Yes. Are there forty-four fruits of stream-entry? It should not be said thus... (etc.)... Does one realize the fruit of stream-entry with seventy-seven knowledges? Yes. Are there seventy-seven fruits of stream-entry? Are these the results of offenses? It should not be said thus... 346. Should it not be said – "gradual realization"? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – "Just as, monks, the great ocean has a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, a gradual descent, not an abrupt drop; even so, monks, in this Dhamma and Discipline, there is a gradual training, a gradual practice, a gradual path, not an abrupt penetration of knowledge." Is there such a Suttanta? Yes. Then it is gradual realization. Should it not be said – "gradual realization"? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – "Gradually, the wise one, little by little, moment by moment; like a smith with silver, removes the impurities from himself." Is there such a Suttanta? Yes. Then it is gradual realization. Is it gradual realization? Yes. Did not the Venerable Elder Gavampati say this to the monks – "This, friends, I heard directly from the Blessed One, I received directly – 'Monks, whoever sees suffering, he also sees the origin of suffering, he also sees the cessation of suffering, he also sees the path leading to the cessation of suffering; whoever sees the origin of suffering, he also sees suffering, he also sees the cessation of suffering, he also sees the path leading to the cessation of suffering; whoever sees the cessation of suffering, he also sees suffering, he also sees the origin of suffering, he also sees the path leading to the cessation of suffering; whoever sees the path leading to the cessation of suffering, he also sees suffering, he also sees the origin of suffering, he also sees the cessation of suffering.'" Is there such a Suttanta? Yes. Then it should not be said – "gradual realization." Is it gradual realization? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – "With the attainment of vision, three things are abandoned; self-identity view, doubt, and adherence to rites and rituals..." there is nothing; And he is freed from the four states of woe, He is unable to commit the six grave offenses.” Is there such a discourse? Yes. Then it should not be said – “gradual realization.” Gradual realization? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – “Monks, when the stainless, blemishless Dhamma-eye arose in the noble disciple – ‘Whatever is of the nature to arise, all that is of the nature to cease,’ with the arising of vision, monks, three fetters are abandoned by the noble disciple – personality view, doubt, adherence to rites and rituals!” Is there such a discourse? Yes. Then it should not be said – “gradual realization.” The discussion on gradual realization is concluded. 2. The Second Chapter (19) 10. Discussion on Convention 347. Is the convention of the Blessed Buddha supramundane? Yes. Does it strike the supramundane ear, not the mundane? Do they understand it with supramundane consciousness, not mundane? Do disciples understand it, not ordinary people? It should not be said thus…etc…. Does the convention of the Blessed Buddha strike the mundane ear? Yes. If the convention of the Blessed Buddha strikes the mundane ear, then it should certainly not be said – “the convention of the Blessed Buddha is supramundane.” Do they understand the convention of the Blessed Buddha with mundane consciousness? Yes. If they understand the convention of the Blessed Buddha with mundane consciousness, then it should certainly not be said – “the convention of the Blessed Buddha is supramundane.” Do ordinary people understand the convention of the Blessed Buddha? Yes. If ordinary people understand the convention of the Blessed Buddha, then it should certainly not be said – “the convention of the Blessed Buddha is supramundane.” 348.