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"With as many monks as he wishes, with that many monks let him come." Then indeed Sabbadinna said: "Let him come, great king, with ten monks." A second time indeed the king said: "With as many monks as he wishes, with that many monks let him come." A second time indeed Sabbadinna said: "Let him come, great king, with ten monks." A third time indeed the king said: "With as many monks as he wishes, with that many monks let him come." A third time indeed Sabbadinna said: "Let him come, great king, with ten monks." "Indeed, all this preparation is ready. I say, 'With as many monks as he wishes, with that many monks let him come.' This Sabbadinna, my friend, says otherwise. Are we not capable of giving food to the monks?" When this was said, Sabbadinna was embarrassed. Then indeed Devamantī, Anantakāya, and Maṅkura approached the venerable Nāgasena. Having approached, they... They said to Venerable Nāgasena: "The king, venerable sir, Milinda, says this: 'As many monks as he wishes, with that many monks let him come!'" Then Venerable Nāgasena, having dressed in the forenoon, taking his bowl and robe, entered Sāgala with eighty thousand monks. Then Anantakāya, walking near Venerable Nāgasena, said this to Venerable Nāgasena: "Venerable Nāgasena, this that you say, 'Nāgasena,' who here is Nāgasena?" The Elder said: "Who here do you think is 'Nāgasena'?" "That, venerable sir, the inner wind, the life-force, which enters and exits, that I think is 'Nāgasena'." "But if this wind, having exited, were not to re-enter, or having entered, were not to exit, would that person live?" "No, venerable sir." "But these conch-blowers who blow a conch, does their wind re-enter?" "No, venerable sir." "But these flute-players who blow a flute, does their wind re-enter?" "No, venerable sir." "But these horn-blowers who blow a horn, does their wind re-enter?" "No, venerable sir." "Then why do they not die from that?" "I am not able to converse with you, speaker. Please, venerable sir, explain the meaning." "This is not a life-force; these are called 'in-breaths and out-breaths,' bodily formations," the Elder gave an Abhidhamma discourse. Then Anantakāya declared himself a lay follower. The Question of Anantakāya, the fourth. 5. The Question of Renunciation 5. Then Venerable Nāgasena approached the dwelling of King Milinda, and having approached, he sat down on the prepared seat. Then King Milinda, having satisfied and invited Venerable Nāgasena and his assembly with choice food, both hard and soft, with his own hand, having clothed each monk with a pair of cloths, and having clothed Venerable Nāgasena with a triple robe, Venerable Nāgase... said to him: "Venerable Nāgasena, sit here with ten monks, the rest may go." Then King Milinda, knowing that the Venerable Nāgasena had eaten and removed his hand from the bowl, took a low seat and sat to one side. Seated to one side, King Milinda said to the Venerable Nāgasena: "Venerable Nāgasena, what is the topic of conversation?" "We, great king, are concerned with the goal; let the conversation be about the goal." The King said: "For what purpose, Venerable Nāgasena, is your going forth? And what is your ultimate goal?" The Elder said: "How, great king, might this suffering cease, and no other suffering arise? For this purpose, great king, is our going forth. Unclinging final Nibbāna, that indeed is our ultimate goal." "But, Venerable Nāgasena, do all go forth for this purpose?" "No, great king, some go forth for this purpose, some go forth out of fear of kings, some go forth out of fear of robbers, some go forth because of debt, some go forth for a livelihood. But those who go forth rightly, they go forth for this purpose." "And you, Venerable sir, did you go forth for this purpose?" "I, great king, went forth when I was young, I did not know for what purpose I was going forth. But it occurred to me thus: 'These Sakyaputtiya ascetics are wise, they will train me.' So, trained by them, I know and I see: 'For this purpose is the going forth.'" "You are skillful, Venerable Nāgasena." The Question on Going Forth, the Fifth. 6. The Question on Rebirth 6. The King said: "Venerable Nāgasena, is there anyone who dies and is not reborn?" The Elder said: "Some are reborn, some are not reborn." "Who is reborn, who is not reborn?" "One with defilements, great king, is reborn; one without defilements is not." will he be reborn?” “But will you, Venerable Nāgasena, be reborn?” “If, great king, I am with clinging, I will be reborn. If I am without clinging, I will not be reborn.” “You are clever, Venerable Nāgasena.” The Sixth Question on Rebirth. 7. The Question on Wise Attention 7. The king said, “Venerable Nāgasena, he who is not reborn, is it not by wise attention that he is not reborn?” “By wise attention, great king, and by wisdom, and by other wholesome states.” “Is not, Venerable Sir, wise attention itself wisdom?” “No, great king, attention is one thing, wisdom is another. For, great king, even these goats, sheep, oxen, buffaloes, camels, and donkeys have attention, but they do not have wisdom.” “You are clever, Venerable Nāgasena.” The Seventh Question on Wise Attention. 8. The Question on the Characteristics of Attention 8. The king said, “What is the characteristic, Venerable Nāgasena, of attention? What is the characteristic of wisdom?” “The characteristic of attention, great king, is to gather. The characteristic of wisdom is to cut.” “How is attention characterized by gathering? How is wisdom characterized by cutting? Give an analogy.” “Do you know, great king, barley reapers?” “Yes, Venerable Sir, I know them.” “How, great king, do barley reapers reap barley?” “With the left hand, Venerable Sir, they take a bundle of barley, and with the right hand, they take a sickle, and with the sickle, they cut.” “Just as, great king, a barley reaper, taking a bundle of barley with the left hand, and taking a sickle with the right hand, cuts the barley, even so, great king, a meditator, taking the mind with attention, cuts the defilements with wisdom. Thus, great king, attention is characterized by gathering, thus wisdom is characterized by cutting.” “You are clever, Venerable Nāgasena.” The Eighth Question on the Characteristics of Attention. 9. The Question on the Characteristics of Morality 9. The king said, “Venerable Sir, "Nāgasena, what you said, 'and by other wholesome states,' what are these wholesome states?" "Virtue, great king, faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration. These are those wholesome states." "What is the characteristic, venerable sir, of virtue?" "The characteristic of support, great king, is virtue for all wholesome states. For faculties, powers, factors of awakening, path factors, foundations of mindfulness, right exertions, bases of psychic power, absorptions, liberations, concentrations, attainments, virtue is the support. Established in virtue, great king, the meditator, relying on virtue, founded on virtue, develops the five faculties: the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. All wholesome states do not decline." "Give an analogy." "Just as, great king, whatever seed-plants and root-plants come to growth, to increase, to abundance, all of them, relying on the earth, established on the earth, come to growth, to increase, to abundance. Even so, great king, the meditator, relying on virtue, established on virtue, develops the five faculties: the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom." "Give a further analogy." "Just as, great king, whatever tasks requiring strength are performed, all of them, relying on the earth, established on the earth, are performed. Even so, great king, the meditator, relying on virtue, established on virtue, develops the five faculties: the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom." "Give a further analogy." "Just as, great king, a city builder, wishing to build a city, first has the city site cleared, has stumps and thorns removed, has the ground leveled, and then afterwards, dividing it with streets, crossroads, squares, and so forth, builds the city. Even so, great king, the meditator, relying on virtue, established on virtue, develops the five faculties: the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy..." the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom.” “Give a further simile.” “Just as, great king, a tumbler, wishing to show his skill, has the ground dug up, has the gravelly surface removed, has the ground leveled, and shows his skill on soft ground. Even so, great king, the meditator, relying on virtue, established in virtue, develops the five faculties: the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. This, great king, was also spoken by the Blessed One – “‘A man of wisdom, established in virtue, developing mind and wisdom; An ardent, skillful monk, he disentangles this tangle.’ “‘This is the foundation, like the earth for beings, and this is the root of the growth of wholesome things; This is the entrance to the teaching of all Buddhas, this excellent aggregate of virtue, the Pātimokkha.’” “You are capable, venerable Nāgasena.” The Ninth Question on the Characteristic of Virtue. 10. The Question on Faith, its Characteristic of Clarity 10. The king said, “Venerable Nāgasena, what is the characteristic of faith?” “Faith, great king, has the characteristic of clarity, and it has the characteristic of leaping forth.” “How, venerable, does faith have the characteristic of clarity?” “Faith, great king, when it arises, suppresses the hindrances; the mind becomes free from hindrances, clear, serene, unclouded.