English
I approached the ascetic Mahāmoggallāna and asked him this matter. The ascetic Moggallāna explained this matter to me with these words, with these expressions, just as the good Gotama did. Wonderful, good Gotama! Amazing, good Gotama! That the meaning of the Teacher and the disciple, the expression of the Teacher and the disciple, should agree, should meet, and not conflict, in this highest matter.” The seventh. 8. The Vacchagotta Sutta 417. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One; having approached, he exchanged greetings with the Blessed One. Having concluded the courteous and memorable talk, he sat down to one side. Sitting to one side, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: “Is the world eternal, good Gotama?” “This has not been declared by me, Vaccha, that ‘the world is eternal’…” “Then, good Gotama, ‘does the Tathāgata neither exist nor not exist after death’?” “This too, Vaccha, has not been declared by me, that ‘the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’.” “What, good Gotama, is the reason, what is the cause, that when wanderers of other sects are asked thus, their explanation is thus: ‘the world is eternal’ or… ‘the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death’? But what, good Gotama, is the reason, what is the cause, that when the good Gotama is asked thus, He does not declare thus: 'The world is eternal'... 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'? Other wanderers, Vaccha, regard form as self, or self as having form, or form in self, or self in form. They regard feeling as self... perception... formations... consciousness as self, or self as having consciousness, or consciousness in self, or self in consciousness. Therefore, when other wanderers are asked thus, they declare thus: 'The world is eternal' or... 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'. But the Tathāgata, Vaccha, the Arahant, the Perfectly Self-Awakened One, does not regard form as self, nor self as having form, nor form in self, nor self in form. He does not regard feeling as self... nor perception... nor formations... nor consciousness as self, nor self as having consciousness, nor consciousness in self, nor self in consciousness. Therefore, when the Tathāgata is asked thus, he does not declare thus: 'The world is eternal'... 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta rose from his seat and went to where the venerable Mahāmoggallāna was; having approached, he exchanged greetings with the venerable Mahāmoggallāna. Having concluded the courteous and memorable talk, he sat down to one side. Sitting to one side, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the venerable Mahāmoggallāna: "Is the world eternal, good Moggallāna?" "That, Vaccha, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: 'The world is eternal'..." "But, good Moggallāna, 'Does the Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'?" "That too, Vaccha, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'." "Who Now, indeed, Venerable Moggallāna, what is the reason, what is the cause, whereby other sectarians, wanderers, when asked thus, declare thus – 'The world is eternal' or... 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'? But what, Venerable Moggallāna, is the reason, what is the cause, whereby the recluse Gotama, when asked thus, does not declare thus – 'The world is eternal' or... 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'? "Other sectarians, Vaccha, wanderers, regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. They regard feeling as self, perception as self, formations as self, consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. Therefore, other sectarians, wanderers, when asked thus, declare thus – 'The world is eternal' or... 'The Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death'. But the Tathāgata, Vaccha, the Arahant, the Perfectly Self-Awakened One, does not regard form as self, nor self as possessing form, nor form as in self, nor self as in form. He does not regard feeling as self, nor perception as self, nor formations as self, nor consciousness as self, nor self as possessing consciousness, nor consciousness as in self, nor self as in consciousness. Therefore, the Tathāgata, when asked thus, does not declare thus – 'The world is eternal', 'The world is not eternal', 'The world is finite', 'The world is infinite', 'The soul and the body are the same', 'The soul and the body are different', 'The Tathāgata exists after death', 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death', 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death', 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'." "Wonderful, Venerable Moggallāna, amazing, Venerable Moggallāna! Indeed, here..." Indeed, the meaning of the Teacher and the disciple, the meaning with the meaning, the letter with the letter, will correspond, will agree, will not contradict, in this highest teaching. Now I, Venerable Moggallāna, having approached the ascetic Gotama, asked him about this matter. And the ascetic Gotama explained this matter to me with these words, with these phrases, just as Venerable Moggallāna did. Wonderful, Venerable Moggallāna, amazing, Venerable Moggallāna! Indeed, the meaning of the Teacher and the disciple, the meaning with the meaning, the letter with the letter, will correspond, will agree, will not contradict, in this highest teaching. The eighth. 9. The Discourse on the Hall of Curiosity 418. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he exchanged greetings with the Blessed One. Having concluded the courteous and memorable talk, he sat down to one side. Seated to one side, the wanderer Vacchagotta said this to the Blessed One: "Some days ago, Venerable Gotama, or even earlier, many ascetics and brahmins of various sects, wanderers, were gathered and assembled in the Hall of Curiosity, and this discussion arose among them: 'Indeed, Pūraṇa Kassapa, a leader of a community, a head of a group, a teacher of a group, well-known, famous, a founder of a sect, esteemed by many people. He declares the destination of a disciple who has passed away, who has died: 'So-and-so is reborn there, so-and-so is reborn there.' And even if his disciple is a supreme person, an ultimate person, one who has attained the ultimate attainment, he also declares the destination of that disciple who has passed away, who has died: 'So-and-so is reborn there, so-and-so is reborn there.'" "And also Makkhali Gosāla... (and so on) ... And also Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta... (and so on) ... And also Sañcaya Belaṭṭhaputta... (and so on) ... And also Pakudha Kaccāna... (and so on) ... And also Ajita Kesakambala, a leader of a community, a head of a group, a teacher of a group, well-known, famous, a founder of a sect..." He is esteemed by the many. He too declares concerning a disciple who has passed away, who has died, as to his rebirths: 'So-and-so is reborn there, So-and-so is reborn there.' Even if his disciple is a supreme person, a highest person, one who has attained the highest attainment, he too declares concerning that disciple who has passed away, who has died, as to his rebirths: 'So-and-so is reborn there, So-and-so is reborn there.' This ascetic Gotama is a leader of a community, a leader of a group, a teacher of a group, known, famous, a founder of a sect, esteemed by the many. He too declares concerning a disciple who has passed away, who has died, as to his rebirths: 'So-and-so is reborn there, So-and-so is reborn there.' But if his disciple is a supreme person, a highest person, one who has attained the highest attainment, he does not declare concerning that disciple who has passed away, who has died, as to his rebirths: 'So-and-so is reborn there, So-and-so is reborn there.' Rather, he declares concerning him thus: 'He has cut off craving, he has rolled back the fetters, by rightly comprehending conceit, he has made an end of suffering.' Therefore, Venerable Gotama, doubt has arisen in me, perplexity has arisen in me: 'How indeed is the Dhamma of the ascetic Gotama to be understood?' "It is fitting for you, Vaccha, to doubt, it is fitting to be perplexed. Perplexity has arisen in you concerning a doubtful matter. I, Vaccha, declare rebirth for one with clinging, not for one without clinging. Just as, Vaccha, fire burns with fuel, not without fuel; even so, Vaccha, I declare rebirth for one with clinging, not for one without clinging." "Venerable Gotama, when a flame, blown by the wind, goes a long way, what does the Venerable Gotama declare to be its clinging?" "When, Vaccha, a flame, blown by the wind, goes a long way, I declare that..." I declare it to be clinging to wind. For wind, Vaccha, is the clinging at that time. "But, good Gotama, at that time when this body is laid aside, and the being has not yet been reborn into another body, what clinging does the good Gotama declare for this?" "Vaccha, at that time when this body is laid aside, and the being has not yet been reborn into another body, I declare it to be clinging to craving. For craving, Vaccha, is the clinging at that time." The Ninth. 10. The Discourse to Ānanda 419. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One; he exchanged greetings with the Blessed One. Having exchanged courteous and amiable talk, he sat down to one side. Seated to one side, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Is there, good Gotama, a self?" When this was said, the Blessed One remained silent. "Then, good Gotama, is there no self?" A second time the Blessed One remained silent. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta rose from his seat and departed. Then, not long after the wanderer Vacchagotta had departed, the Venerable Ānanda said to the Blessed One: "Why, Venerable Sir, did the Blessed One, when questioned by the wanderer Vacchagotta, not answer his question?"