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10. The Connected Discourses on the Undetermined 1. The Khemā Sutta 410. At one time the Blessed One was staying at Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Now at that time the bhikkhunī Khemā, while wandering in the Kosala country, had taken up residence at Toraṇavatthu, between Sāvatthī and Sāketa. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, going from Sāketa to Sāvatthī, took up residence for one night at Toraṇavatthu, between Sāketa and Sāvatthī. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala addressed a certain man: “Come, good man, find out if there is any such ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu whom I might visit today.” “Yes, Your Majesty,” that man replied to King Pasenadi of Kosala, and having searched throughout Toraṇavatthu, he did not see any such ascetic or brahmin whom King Pasenadi of Kosala might visit. That man saw the bhikkhunī Khemā, who had taken up residence in Toraṇavatthu. Having seen her, he approached King Pasenadi of Kosala; having approached, he said to King Pasenadi of Kosala: “There is no such ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu, Your Majesty, whom Your Majesty might visit. But there is, Your Majesty, a bhikkhunī named Khemā, a disciple of that Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Self-Enlightened One. This good report has spread about that venerable lady: ‘She is wise, skilled, intelligent, learned, a good speaker, with excellent ready wit.’ Let Your Majesty visit her.” Then King Pasenadi of Kosala approached the bhikkhunī Khemā; having approached and paid homage to the bhikkhunī Khemā, he sat down to one side. Seated to one side, King Pasenadi of Kosala said to the bhikkhunī Khemā: “What, venerable lady, happens to the Tathāgata after death?” “That, great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: ‘H Does the Tathāgata exist after death? But venerable one, does the Tathāgata not exist after death? This too, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death.' But venerable one, does the Tathāgata both exist and not exist after death? This, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death.' But venerable one, does the Tathāgata neither exist nor not exist after death? This too, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor not exists after death.' When asked, 'Venerable one, does the Tathāgata exist after death?' you say, 'This, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: the Tathāgata exists after death.' When asked, 'But venerable one, does the Tathāgata not exist after death?' you say, 'This too, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: the Tathāgata does not exist after death.' When asked, 'But venerable one, does the Tathāgata both exist and not exist after death?' you say, 'This, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: the Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death.' When asked, 'But venerable one, does the Tathāgata neither exist nor not exist after death?' you say, 'This too, O great king, has been undeclared by the Blessed One: the Tathāgata neither exists nor not exists after death.' What, venerable one, is the reason, what is the cause, for this being undeclared by the Blessed One? In that case, O great king, I shall question you in return about this. You should answer as you deem fit. What do you think, O great king, do you have any calculator, or counter, or reckoner who is able to count the sands of the Ganges – saying, 'There are so many grains of sand,' or 'There are so many hundreds of grains of sand,' or 'There are so many thousands of grains of sand,' or 'There are so many hundreds of thousands of grains of sand'? "No, venerable one." "But do you have any counter, or reckoner, or calculator, who is able to count the water in the great ocean— saying, 'There are so many measures of water,' or 'So many hundreds of measures of water,' or 'So many thousands of measures of water,' or 'So many hundreds of thousands of measures of water'?" "No, venerable one." "For what reason?" "Venerable one, the ocean is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable." "Even so, great king, that form by which one might describe the Tathāgata— that form has been abandoned by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm-stump, brought to non-existence, not liable to arise in the future. Released from the reckoning of form, great king, the Tathāgata is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable— just like the great ocean. 'The Tathāgata exists after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'—this does not apply. "That feeling by which one might describe the Tathāgata— that feeling has been abandoned by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm-stump, brought to non-existence, not liable to arise in the future. Released from the reckoning of feeling, great king, the Tathāgata is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable— just like the great ocean. 'The Tathāgata exists after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'—this does not apply. "That perception by which one might describe the Tathāgata— that perception has been abandoned by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm-stump, brought to non-existence, not liable to arise in the future. Released from the reckoning of perception, great king, the Tathāgata is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable— just like the great ocean. 'The Tathāgata exists after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death'—this does not apply; 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'—this does not apply. "Those formations by which one might describe the Tathāgata— those formations have been abandoned by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm-stump, brought to non-existence, not liable to arise in the future. Released from the reckoning of formations, great king, the Tathāgata is deep, immeasurable, unfathomable— just like the great ocean. 'The Tathāgata exists after death'— 'The Tathāgata exists after death' - this does not apply. 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death' - this does not apply. 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death' - this does not apply. 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death' - this does not apply. "That consciousness by which one might describe the Tathāgata, that consciousness for the Tathāgata is abandoned, uprooted, made like a palm-stump, brought to non-existence, not subject to future arising. Freed from reckoning by consciousness, O great king, the Tathāgata is profound, immeasurable, hard to fathom – just like the great ocean. 'The Tathāgata exists after death' - this does not apply. 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death' - this does not apply. 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death' - this does not apply. 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death' - this does not apply." Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, having delighted in and approved of what Bhikkhunī Khema had said, rose from his seat, saluted Bhikkhunī Khema, circumambulated her, and departed. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, at a later time, approached the Blessed One; having approached and saluted the Blessed One, he sat down to one side. Seated to one side, King Pasenadi of Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Sir, does the Tathāgata exist after death?" "This, O great king, has been undeclared by me – 'The Tathāgata exists after death'." "But then, Venerable Sir, does the Tathāgata not exist after death?" "This too, O great king, has been undeclared by me – 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death'." "Now then, Venerable Sir, does the Tathāgata both exist and not exist after death?" "This, O great king, has been undeclared by me – 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death'." "But then, Venerable Sir, does the Tathāgata neither exist nor not exist after death?" "This too, O great king, has been undeclared by me – 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'." after death.” “What then, venerable sir, is the Tathāgata after death?” Being asked thus, “This has been undeclared by me, great king, that the Tathāgata is after death,” you say… “What then, venerable sir, is the Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death?” Being asked thus, “This too, great king, has been undeclared by me, that the Tathāgata neither is nor is not after death,” you say. “What then, venerable sir, is the reason, what is the cause, that this has been undeclared by the Blessed One?” “In that case, great king, I will question you in return about this. As it seems fit to you, so you should declare it. What do you think, great king, is there any calculator, or counter, or reckoner for you, who is able to count the sand of the Ganges— ‘so many grains of sand,’ or… ‘so many hundreds of thousands of grains of sand’?” “No, venerable sir.” “Is there then any calculator, or counter, or reckoner for you, who is able to count the water in the great ocean— ‘so many measures of water,’ or… ‘so many hundreds of thousands of measures of water’?” “No, venerable sir.” “For what reason?” “The great ocean, venerable sir, is deep, immeasurable, difficult to fathom.” “Even so, great king, that form by which one might define the Tathāgata, that form of the Tathāgata has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to non-existence, not liable to future arising. The Tathāgata, great king, is released from the reckoning of form, deep, immeasurable, difficult to fathom—