English
Now at that time, Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta was residing in Nāḷandā with a large assembly of Nigaṇṭhas. Then the Nigaṇṭha Dīghatapassī, having wandered for alms in Nāḷandā, and having returned from his alms round after his meal, went to Pāvārika’s Mango Grove, to where the Blessed One was; having approached, he exchanged greetings with the Blessed One. Having concluded the courteous and memorable talk, he stood to one side. To Dīghatapassī the Nigaṇṭha, standing to one side, the Blessed One said this – “There are indeed, Tapassī, Dīghatapassī, here are seats; if you wish, sit down. When this was said, the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī took a low seat and sat down to one side. To Dīghatapassī, seated to one side, the Blessed One said this: "How many actions, Tapassī, does the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta declare for the doing of evil deeds, for the arising of evil deeds?" "It is not customary, friend Gotama, for the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta to declare 'action, action'; it is 'punishment, punishment,' friend Gotama, that the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta is accustomed to declare." "How many punishments, Tapassī, does the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta declare for the doing of evil deeds, for the arising of evil deeds?" "Three punishments, friend Gotama, does the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta declare for the doing of evil deeds, for the arising of evil deeds, namely: punishment by body, punishment by speech, punishment by mind." "Are they, Tapassī, a different punishment by body, a different punishment by speech, and a different punishment by mind?" "They are, friend Gotama, a different punishment by body, a different punishment by speech, and a different punishment by mind." "Among these three punishments, Tapassī, thus distinguished, thus differentiated, which punishment does the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta declare to be most blameworthy for the doing of evil deeds, for the arising of evil deeds? Is it punishment by body, or punishment by speech, or punishment by mind?" "Among these three punishments, friend Gotama, thus distinguished, thus differentiated, the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta declares punishment by body to be most blameworthy for the doing of evil deeds, for the arising of evil deeds, not so much punishment by speech, not so much punishment by mind." "Punishment by body, Tapassī, you say?" "Punishment by body, friend Gotama, I say." "Punishment by body, Tapassī, you say?" "Punishment by body, "Friend Gotama, I say." "Bodily action, ascetic, do you say?" "Bodily action, friend Gotama, I say." Thus the Blessed One established the Naked Ascetic Dīghatapassī on this point of discussion up to the third time. 57. When this was said, the Naked Ascetic Dīghatapassī said to the Blessed One: "But you, friend Gotama, how many 'punishments' do you declare for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds?" "Indeed, ascetic, it is not the Tathāgata's custom to declare 'punishment, punishment'; 'action, action' indeed, ascetic, it is the Tathāgata's custom to declare." "But you, friend Gotama, how many actions do you declare for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds?" "Indeed, ascetic, I declare three actions for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds, namely: bodily action, verbal action, mental action." "But is it, friend Gotama, that bodily action is one thing, verbal action another, mental action another?" "Indeed, ascetic, bodily action is one thing, verbal action another, mental action another." "Among these three actions, friend Gotama, thus distinguished, thus differentiated, which action do you declare to be more blameworthy for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds? Is it bodily action, or verbal action, or mental action?" "Among these three actions, ascetic, thus distinguished, thus differentiated, I declare mental action to be more blameworthy for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds, not so much bodily action, not so much verbal action." "Mental action, friend Gotama, do you say?" "Mental action, ascetic, I say." "Mental action, friend Gotama, do you say?" "Mental action, ascetic, I say." "Mental action, friend Gotama, do you say?" "Mental action..." ascetic, I say.” Thus, the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī, having established the Blessed One in this topic of discussion for a third time, rose from his seat and approached the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta. 58. Now at that time, the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta was seated with a large assembly of householders, a young assembly, with Upāli at its head. The naked ascetic Nāṭaputta saw the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī approaching from afar; having seen the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī, he said to him, “Well, where do you come from, ascetic, in the middle of the day?” “I, venerable sir, come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.” “Did you, ascetic, have any conversation with the ascetic Gotama?” “Indeed, venerable sir, I had some conversation with the ascetic Gotama.” “How then, ascetic, did you have some conversation with the ascetic Gotama?” Then the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī related all the conversation he had had with the Blessed One to the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta. When this was said, the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta said to the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī, “Excellent, excellent, ascetic! Just as a well-taught disciple, rightly understanding the teacher’s teaching, so has the naked ascetic Dīghatapassī explained to the ascetic Gotama. What indeed is comparable, a slight mental deed, in comparison to such a gross bodily deed! Indeed, the bodily deed is far more blameworthy for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds, not so the verbal deed, not so the mental deed.” 59. When this was said, Upāli the householder said to the naked ascetic Nāṭaputta, “Excellent, excellent, venerable Dīghatapassī! Just as a well-taught disciple, rightly understanding the teacher’s teaching, so has the venerable ascetic explained to the ascetic Gotama. What indeed is comparable Fie on mental action, compared to such a gross bodily action! Indeed, bodily action is far more blameworthy for the doing of evil deeds, for the occurrence of evil deeds, not so verbal action, not so mental action. Come now, venerable sir, I shall go and challenge the recluse Gotama on this very point of discussion. If the recluse Gotama stands firm as the venerable ascetic has stood firm, just as a strong man might seize a long-haired ram by its fleece and drag it, pull it, haul it about, even so shall I drag, pull, haul about the recluse Gotama with argument after argument. Just as a strong brewer’s assistant might throw a large brewer’s strainer into a deep pool of water and, taking it by the corners, drag it, pull it, haul it about, even so shall I drag, pull, haul about the recluse Gotama with argument after argument. Just as a strong brewer’s cheat might take a hair-sieve by the corners and shake it off, shake it down, shake it out, even so shall I shake off, shake down, shake out the recluse Gotama with argument after argument. Just as a sixty-year-old elephant might plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game called ‘washing the cloth’, even so shall I play with the recluse Gotama as if he were a game of ‘washing the cloth’. Come now, venerable sir, I shall go and challenge the recluse Gotama on this very point of discussion. “Go then, householder, challenge the recluse Gotama on this very point of discussion. Either I, householder, would challenge the recluse Gotama, or the ascetic Dīghatapassī, or you.” 60. When this was said, the ascetic Dīghatapassī said to the Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta: "Indeed, Master, it does not please me that Upāli the householder should challenge the recluse Gotama to a debate. For the recluse Gotama, Master, is a magician, he knows a captivating magic by which he converts the disciples of other sects." "It is impossible, ascetic, there is no chance that Upāli the householder should become a disciple of the recluse Gotama. But it is possible that the recluse Gotama should become a disciple of Upāli the householder. Go, householder, challenge the recluse Gotama on this matter of discussion. For either I, householder, could challenge the recluse Gotama, or Dīghatapassī the Nigaṇṭha, or you." A second time, indeed, Dīghatapassī said this to Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta: "Indeed, Master, it does not please me that Upāli the householder should challenge the recluse Gotama to a debate. For the recluse Gotama, Master, is a magician, he knows a captivating magic by which he converts the disciples of other sects." "It is impossible, ascetic, there is no chance that Upāli the householder should become a disciple of the recluse Gotama. But it is possible that the recluse Gotama should become a disciple of Upāli the householder. Go, householder, challenge the recluse Gotama on this matter of discussion. For either I, householder, could challenge the recluse Gotama, or Dīghatapassī the Nigaṇṭha, or you." A third time, indeed, Dīghatapassī the Nigaṇṭha said this to Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta: "Indeed, Master, it does not please me that Upāli the householder should challenge the recluse Gotama to a debate. For the recluse Gotama, Master, is a magician, he knows a captivating magic by which he converts the disciples of other sects." "It is impossible, ascetic, there is no chance that Upāli the householder should become a disciple of the recluse Gotama. But it is possible that the recluse Gotama should become a disciple of Upāli the householder. Go, householder, challenge the recluse Gotama on this matter of discussion. For either I, householder, could challenge the recluse Gotama, or Dīghatapassī the Nigaṇṭha, or you." "Yes, Master," Upāli the householder replied to Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta, rose from his seat, paid homage to Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta, circumambulated him clockwise, and then went to the Pāvārika Mango Grove, to where the Blessed One was; having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One,