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Once, venerable sir, I approached Pūraṇa Kassapa; having approached, I exchanged greetings with Pūraṇa Kassapa. Having concluded the courteous and memorable conversation, I sat down to one side. As I sat to one side, venerable sir, I said to Pūraṇa Kassapa: "Just as these various crafts, good Kassapa—that is to say, elephant riders, horse riders, charioteers, archers, standard-bearers, shield-bearers, food-givers, fierce warriors, princes, great elephants, heroes, armored warriors, sons of slave women, cooks, barbers, bath attendants, chefs, garland makers, dyers, weavers, basket makers, potters, accountants, seal makers, and any other such various crafts—they live by the visible fruit of their craft in this very life; they make themselves happy and content thereby, they make their parents happy and content, they make their wives and children happy and content, they make their friends and associates happy and content, they establish an elevated offering for recluses and brahmins, leading to a happy result, to heaven. Is it possible, good Kassapa, to declare a visible fruit of recluseship in this very life in the same way?" 166. When this was said, venerable sir, Pūraṇa Kassapa said to me: "For one who acts, great king, or causes to act, for one who cuts, or causes to cut, for one who cooks, or causes to cook, for one who causes sorrow, or causes to cause sorrow, for one who wearies, or causes to weary, for one who trembles, or causes to tremble, for one who takes life, or causes to take life, for one who takes what is not given, for one who breaks into houses, for one who plunders, for one who commits burglary, for one who stands on the highway, for one who goes to another's wife, for one who speaks falsehood, for one who acts, no evil is done. Even if with a razor-edged discus one were to make all the living beings on this earth into one heap of flesh, one pile of flesh, there would be no evil from that, there would be no increase of evil. Even if one were to go to the south bank of the Ganges, killing, slaughtering, cutting If one cuts, causes to cut, cooks, causes to cook, there is no evil from that, there is no coming of evil. Even if one goes to the north bank of the Ganges, giving, causing to give, sacrificing, causing to sacrifice, there is no merit from that, there is no coming of merit. By giving, by self-control, by restraint, by truth-speaking, there is no merit, there is no coming of merit.' Thus, indeed, Venerable Sir, Pūraṇa Kassapa, when asked about the visible fruit of recluseship, declared non-action. Just as, Venerable Sir, being asked about a mango, one might declare a breadfruit, or being asked about a breadfruit, one might declare a mango; even so, indeed, Venerable Sir, Pūraṇa Kassapa, when asked about the visible fruit of recluseship, declared non-action. Then, Venerable Sir, it occurred to me: 'How could one like me think it proper to disparage a recluse or brahmin dwelling in my realm?' So I, Venerable Sir, neither approved nor disapproved of Pūraṇa Kassapa's statement. Not approving, not disapproving, displeased, not uttering a displeased word, neither upholding nor overturning his words, I rose from my seat and departed. The Doctrine of Makkhali Gosāla 167. On one occasion, Venerable Sir, I approached Makkhali Gosāla; having approached, I exchanged greetings with Makkhali Gosāla. Having exchanged courteous and memorable talk, I sat down to one side. Seated to one side, Venerable Sir, I said to Makkhali Gosāla: 'Just as, good Gosāla, these various crafts... (etc.) ... Is it possible, good Gosāla, in the same way, to declare a visible fruit of recluseship in this very life?' 168. When this was said, Venerable Sir, Makkhali Gosāla said to me: 'There is no cause, great king, there is no condition for the defilement of beings; without cause, without condition, beings are defiled. There is no cause, there is no condition for beings For purification, beings are purified without cause, without condition. There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer, there is no human effort. There is no strength, there is no energy, there is no human might, there is no human endeavor. All beings, all creatures, all existences, all lives, are powerless, without strength, without energy, determined by fate, circumstance, and nature, in the six classes of birth, experience pleasure and pain. Indeed, there are these fourteen hundred thousand principal wombs, sixty hundreds, six hundreds, five hundreds of actions, five actions, three actions, an action and a half-action, sixty-two paths, sixty-two intermediate aeons, six classes of birth, eight stages of human existence, forty-nine hundred Ājīvakas, forty-nine hundred wanderers, forty-nine hundred abodes of nāgas, twenty hundreds of faculties, thirty hundreds of hells, thirty-six dust-elements, seven conscious wombs, seven unconscious wombs, seven Nigaṇṭha wombs, seven gods, seven humans, seven pisācas, seven lakes, seven kinds of swelling, seven hundreds of swellings, seven precipices, seven hundreds of precipices, seven dreams, seven hundreds of dreams, eighty-four hundred thousand great aeons, through which fools and wise alike will run and wander, and make an end of suffering. There, there is not "By this virtue, or vow, or ascetic practice, or holy life, I shall bring to maturity unripe karma, or by repeatedly touching ripe karma, I shall make an end of it." Such a thing does not exist. Pleasure and pain are measured by a doṇa, in a cycle of existence with a fixed end. There is no decrease or increase, there is no exaltation or debasement. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, unwinds itself as it goes, even so, fools and wise alike will run and wander, and make an end of suffering. 169. "Thus, indeed, venerable sir, Makkhali Gosāla, when asked about the fruit of recluseship visible here and now, declared purification through transmigration." Just as, venerable sir, if asked about a mango, one would explain a breadfruit; if asked about a breadfruit, one would explain a mango; even so, venerable sir, Makkhali Gosāla, when asked about the fruit of recluseship visible here and now, explained the purification of transmigration. Then, venerable sir, it occurred to me: 'How could one like me think of disparaging a recluse or brahmin living in my realm?' So I, venerable sir, neither approved nor disapproved of Makkhali Gosāla's statement. Without approving, without disapproving, displeased, without uttering a displeased word, without accepting that statement, without rejecting it, I rose from my seat and departed. The Doctrine of Ajita Kesakambala 170. Once, venerable sir, I approached Ajita Kesakambala. Having approached, I exchanged greetings with Ajita Kesakambala. Having concluded the courteous and memorable talk, I sat down to one side. Seated to one side, I, venerable sir, said to Ajita Kesakambala: 'Just as, good Ajita, these various crafts... ...is it possible, good Ajita, in the same way, to declare a fruit of recluseship visible here and now?' 171. When this was said, venerable sir, Ajita Kesakambala said to me: 'There is no giving, great king, no sacrifice, no offering, no fruit or result of good and bad deeds. There is no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously arisen beings. There are no recluses or brahmins in the world who are rightly gone, rightly practicing, who, having directly known and realized this world and the other world themselves, proclaim it. This person is made of the four great elements. When he dies, the earth element returns to the earth-body, it goes back to it; the water element returns to the water-body, it goes back to it; the fire element returns to the fire-body, it goes back to it; the air element returns to the air-body, it goes back to it; space... The faculties are absorbed. Five men, with the fifth as the bier, carry the dead. Footprints are seen as far as the charnel ground. The bones become dove-colored, the offerings scattered. This giving is a prescribed gift. Their talk is empty, a false lament, whoever speaks of existence. Fools and wise alike, at the body's breaking, are cut off, they perish, they do not exist after death. 172. "Thus, Venerable Sir, when Ajita Kesakambala was asked about the fruit of recluseship visible here and now, he declared annihilation. Just as, Venerable Sir, if one were asked about a mango, one would declare a breadfruit; or asked about a breadfruit, one would declare a mango; even so, Venerable Sir, when Ajita Kesakambala was asked about the fruit of recluseship visible here and now, he declared annihilation. Then, Venerable Sir, it occurred to me: 'How could one like me think it proper to disparage a recluse or brahmin dwelling in one's realm?' So, Venerable Sir, I neither approved nor disapproved of Ajita Kesakambala's words. Without approving or disapproving, displeased, without uttering words of displeasure, neither accepting nor rejecting that speech, I rose from my seat and departed. The Doctrine of Pakudha Kaccayana 173. "At one time, Venerable Sir, I approached Pakudha Kaccayana; having approached, I exchanged greetings with Pakudha Kaccayana. Having concluded the courteous and memorable talk, I sat down to one side. Seated to one side, Venerable Sir, I said to Pakudha Kaccayana: 'Just as, good Kaccayana, these various crafts... (and so on)... Is it possible, good Kaccayana, in the same way, to declare a fruit of recluseship visible here and now?' 174. "When this was said, Venerable Sir, Pakudha Kaccayana said to me: 'There are, great king, these seven bodies, unmade, not made of anything, not created, not creating, barren, standing firm like a pillar, like a rock-post. They do not move, they do not change, they do not harm one another." they do not harm each other, they are not capable of each other's happiness, or suffering, or happiness and suffering. Which are the seven? The earth-body, the water-body, the fire-body,