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Discourse on Abandoning Discourse on Not Quoting Suttas Does an ordinary person abandon sensual desire and ill-will? Yes. Does he abandon utterly? Does he abandon without remainder? Does he abandon so there is no rebirth? Does he abandon root and all? Does he abandon with craving? Does he abandon with underlying tendencies? Does he abandon with noble knowledge? Does he abandon with the noble path? Does he abandon, penetrating the unshakeable? Does he abandon, realizing the fruit of non-returning? It should not be said thus... Does an ordinary person suppress sensual desire and ill-will? Yes. Does he suppress utterly? Does he suppress without remainder? Does he suppress so there is no rebirth? Does he suppress root and all? Does he suppress with craving? Does he suppress with underlying tendencies? Does he suppress with noble knowledge? Does he suppress with the noble path? Does he suppress, penetrating the unshakeable? Does he suppress, realizing the fruit of non-returning? It should not be said thus... Does a person practicing for the realization of the fruit of non-returning abandon sensual desire and ill-will, and does he abandon utterly, abandon without remainder... abandon, realizing the fruit of non-returning? Yes. Does an ordinary person abandon sensual desire and ill-will, and does he abandon utterly, abandon without remainder... abandon, realizing the fruit of non-returning? It should not be said thus... Does a person practicing for the realization of the fruit of non-returning suppress sensual desire and ill-will, and does he suppress utterly, suppress without remainder... suppress, realizing the fruit of non-returning? Yes. Does an ordinary person suppress sensual desire and ill-will, and does he suppress utterly, suppress without remainder... suppress, realizing the fruit of non-returning? It should not be said thus... Does an ordinary person abandon sensual desire and ill-will, and does he not abandon utterly, not abandon without remainder... not abandon, realizing the fruit of non-returning? Yes. Does a person practicing for the realization of the fruit of non-returning abandon sensual desire and ill-will, and does he not abandon utterly... not realizing the fruit of non-returning? Does he abandon it while realizing the fruit of non-return? It should not be said so... (and so on). The ordinary person suppresses sensual desire and ill-will, but he does not suppress it completely, he does not suppress it without remainder... (and so on)... Does he not suppress it while realizing the fruit of non-return? Yes. The person who has entered upon the realization of the fruit of non-return suppresses sensual desire and ill-will, but he does not suppress it completely, he does not suppress it without remainder... (and so on)... Does he not suppress it while realizing the fruit of non-return? It should not be said so... (and so on). Does the ordinary person abandon sensual desire and ill-will? Yes. By which path? By the path of the form-sphere. Is the path of the form-sphere leading to liberation, leading to destruction, leading to awakening, leading to fading away, taintless, unbound, unknotted, unflooded, unyoked, unhindered, ungrasped, unattached, undefiled? It should not be said so. Is not the path of the form-sphere not leading to liberation, not leading to destruction, not leading to awakening, not leading to fading away, tainted, bound... (and so on)... defiled? Yes. If the path of the form-sphere is not leading to liberation, not leading to destruction... (and so on)... defiled, then it should certainly not be said – "the ordinary person abandons sensual desire and ill-will by the path of the form-sphere." The person who has entered upon the realization of the fruit of non-return abandons sensual desire and ill-will by the path of non-return, and that path is leading to liberation, leading to destruction, leading to awakening, leading to fading away, taintless... (and so on)... undefiled? Yes. The ordinary person abandons sensual desire and ill-will by the path of the form-sphere, and that path is leading to liberation, leading to destruction, leading to awakening, leading to fading away, taintless... (and so on)... undefiled? It should not be said so... (and so on). The ordinary person abandons sensual desire and ill-will by the path of the form-sphere, and that path is not leading to liberation, not leading to destruction, not leading to awakening, not leading to fading away, tainted... (and so on)... defiled? Yes. The person who has entered upon the realization of the fruit of non-return abandons sensual desire and ill-will by the path of non-return, and that path is not leading to liberation, not leading to destruction, not leading to awakening... is not one who goes to decline, with defilements... is defiling? It should not be said thus... 280. An ordinary person, dispassionate towards sensual pleasures, together with the comprehension of the Dhamma, is established in the fruit of non-returning? Yes. Is established in arahantship? It should not be said thus... An ordinary person, dispassionate towards sensual pleasures, together with the comprehension of the Dhamma, is established in the fruit of non-returning? Yes. Does one develop the three paths not before, not after? It should not be said thus... Does one develop the three paths not before, not after? Yes. Does one realize the three fruits of recluseship not before, not after? It should not be said thus... Does one realize the three fruits of recluseship not before, not after? Yes. Is there a combination of three contacts, of three feelings, of three perceptions, of three volitions, of three consciousnesses, of three faiths, of three efforts, of three mindfulnesses, of three concentrations, of three wisdoms? It should not be said thus... An ordinary person, dispassionate towards sensual pleasures, together with the comprehension of the Dhamma, is established in the fruit of non-returning? Yes. By the path of stream-entry? It should not be said thus... By the path of once-returning? It should not be said thus. By which path? By the path of non-returning. By the path of non-returning, does one abandon personality view, doubt, and clinging to rites and rituals? It should not be said thus... 2. Discourse on Citing Suttas 281. By the path of non-returning, does one abandon personality view, doubt, and clinging to rites and rituals? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One that the abandonment of the three fetters is the fruit of stream-entry? Yes. If it has been said by the Blessed One that the abandonment of the three fetters is the fruit of stream-entry, then it should certainly not be said: "By the path of non-returning, one abandons personality view, doubt, and clinging to rites and rituals." By the path of non-returning, does one abandon gross sensual desire and gross ill-will? It should not be said thus... By the path of non-returning, does one abandon gross sensual desire and gross ill-will? Yes. Has it not been said that the attenuation of sensual desire and ill-will is the once-returner Is the fruit of once-returning spoken of by the Blessed One? Yes. If the fruit of once-returning is spoken of by the Blessed One as the attenuation of sensual desire and ill-will, then it should not be said – "By the path of non-returning, one abandons gross sensual desire and gross ill-will." Does an ordinary person, dispassionate towards sensual pleasures, upon the realization of the Dhamma, become established in the fruit of non-returning? Yes. Do all those who realize the Dhamma, upon the realization of the Dhamma, become established in the fruit of non-returning? It should not be said so... (etc.) Should it not be said – "An ordinary person abandons sensual desire and ill-will"? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – "There were in the past, six glorious teachers; free from raw odors, devoted to compassion, transcending the fetters of sensual desire. "Having become dispassionate towards sensual desire, they went to the Brahma-world; there were disciples of theirs, many hundreds. "Free from raw odors, devoted to compassion, transcending the fetters of sensual desire; having become dispassionate towards sensual desire, they went to the Brahma-world." Is there such a discourse? Yes. Then an ordinary person abandons sensual desire and ill-will. Does an ordinary person abandon sensual desire and ill-will? Yes. Has it not been said by the Blessed One – "Indeed, bhikkhus, the teacher Sunetta, though of such long life, though of such long duration, was not liberated from birth, old age, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, and despair; he was not liberated from suffering, I say. For what reason? Because of not understanding and not penetrating four things. Which four? Not understanding and not penetrating the noble morality, the noble concentration, the noble wisdom, the noble liberation. But here, bhikkhus, the noble morality has been understood and penetrated, the noble concentration has been understood and penetrated, the noble wisdom has been understood and penetrated, the noble liberation has been understood and penetrated, the craving for existence has been cut off, the leading to existence has been exhausted, there is no more renewed existence." Virtue, concentration, and wisdom, And unsurpassed liberation; These truths were realized, By the glorious Gotama. "Thus the Buddha, having directly known, Declared the Dhamma to the monks; The Teacher, the ender of suffering, The Seer, fully liberated." "Is there indeed such a Sutta?" "Yes, certainly." "Therefore, it should not be said: 'The ordinary person abandons sensual desire and ill-will.'" The discussion on abandoning is concluded.