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and also for a human child under seven years old, even if practicing rightly, the realization of the Dhamma does not occur. Indeed, great king, for these sixteen individuals, even if practicing rightly, the realization of the Dhamma does not occur." "Venerable Nāgasena, as for those fifteen individuals who are indeed corrupted, whether the realization of the Dhamma occurs for them or not, but for what reason does the realization of the Dhamma not occur for a human child under seven years old, even if practicing rightly? Here, then, a question arises: 'Surely, a child has no lust, no hatred, no delusion, no conceit, no wrong view, no discontent, no sensual thoughts, unmixed with defilements. Such a child is fit, capable, and worthy to penetrate the Four Noble Truths with a single penetration!'" "That very reason, great king, is the reason why I..." I know that even for one under seven years old, even if well-behaved, there is no realization of the Dhamma. If, great king, one under seven years old were to be stained by what stains, were to be corrupted by what corrupts, were to be deluded by what deludes, were to be intoxicated by what intoxicates, were to understand views, were to understand delight and non-delight, were to ponder skillful and unskillful things, then there would be for him a realization of the Dhamma. But, great king, the mind of one under seven years old is weak, feeble, small, little, scant, dull, undeveloped. The unconditioned Nibbana element is heavy, burdensome, vast, great. One under seven years old, great king, with that weak mind, that small, dull, undeveloped mind, cannot penetrate the heavy, burdensome, vast, great, unconditioned Nibbana element. "Just as, great king, Mount Sineru, the king of mountains, is heavy, burdensome, vast, great, could a man, great king, with his own natural strength, power, and energy, lift up Mount Sineru, the king of mountains?" "No, venerable sir." "For what reason, great king?" "Because of the weakness of the man, venerable sir, and the greatness of Mount Sineru, the king of mountains." "Even so, great king, the mind of one under seven years old is weak, feeble, small, little, scant, dull, undeveloped. The unconditioned Nibbana element is heavy, burdensome, vast, great. One under seven years old with that weak mind, that small, dull, undeveloped mind, cannot penetrate the heavy, burdensome, vast, great, unconditioned Nibbana element. For that reason, even for one under seven years old, even if well-behaved, there is no realization of the Dhamma. "Or again, great king, this great earth is long, extended, broad, spread out, wide, extensive, vast, great. Could one, great king, with a tiny drop of water, moisten this great earth and make it into mud?" "No, venerable sir." "For what reason, great king?" "Because of the smallness, venerable sir, of a drop of water, because the great earth is immense.” “Even so, great king, the mind of one under seven years old is weak, feeble, small, little, slight, dull, undeveloped. The unconditioned Nibbāna element is long, extended, broad, vast, wide, ample, immense. One under seven years old, with that weak mind, that small, dull, undeveloped mind, cannot penetrate the great unconditioned Nibbāna element. For that reason, even for one under seven years old who is well-practiced, there is no realization of the Dhamma. “Or again, great king, suppose there were a weak, feeble, small, little, slight, dull fire. Would it be possible, great king, with such a dull fire, to dispel the darkness in the world with its deities and produce light?” “No, venerable sir.” “For what reason, great king?” “Because the fire is dull, venerable sir, and the world is immense.” “Even so, great king, the mind of one under seven years old is weak, feeble, small, little, slight, dull, undeveloped, and covered by the great darkness of ignorance. Therefore, it is difficult to produce the light of knowledge. For that reason, even for one under seven years old who is well-practiced, there is no realization of the Dhamma. “Or again, great king, suppose a sick, emaciated, tiny-bodied sālaka worm were to see a lordly elephant, threefold rutting, nine cubits long, three cubits wide, ten cubits in circumference, eighteen cubits tall, come to its own place, and try to swallow it, to drag it in. Would that sālaka worm, great king, be able to swallow that lordly elephant?” “No, venerable sir.” “For what reason, great king?” “Because the sālaka worm is tiny, venerable sir, and the lordly elephant is immense.” “Even so, great king, the mind of one under seven years old is weak, feeble, small, little, slight, dull, undeveloped. The unconditioned Nibbāna element is immense. With that weak mind, that small, dull, undeveloped mind, he cannot the great to penetrate the unconditioned Nibbāna-element. For that reason, for one less than seven years old, even if well-practiced, there is no realization of the Dhamma." "Good, Venerable Nāgasena, I accept it thus, just so." The question of Dhamma-realization, the eighth. 9. The question of Nibbāna as unmixed happiness. "9. Venerable Nāgasena, is Nibbāna entirely happiness, or mixed with suffering?" "Nibbāna, great king, is entirely happiness, unmixed with suffering." "We do not believe that statement, Venerable Nāgasena, 'Nibbāna is entirely happiness.' In this matter, Venerable Nāgasena, we hold that 'Nibbāna is mixed with suffering.' And we find a reason for this, that 'Nibbāna is mixed with suffering.' What is this reason? Those, Venerable Nāgasena, who seek Nibbāna, for them is seen torment and distress of body and mind, taking up standing, walking, sitting, lying, eating, and suppression of drowsiness, and oppression of the sense-bases, abandonment of wealth, grain, dear relatives, and friends. Whoever in the world are happy, endowed with happiness, all of them delight and grow in the sphere of the five sense-pleasures. With various pleasant and delightful beautiful forms, they delight and grow the eye. With various pleasant and delightful sounds of song and music, they delight and grow the ear. With various pleasant and delightful beautiful scents of flowers, fruits, leaves, bark, roots, and essences, they delight and grow the nose. With various pleasant and delightful beautiful tastes of solid food, soft food, licks, drinks, and savories, they delight and grow the tongue. With various pleasant and delightful beautiful touches, subtle, delicate, soft, and gentle, they delight and grow the body. With various pleasant and delightful beautiful and ugly, good and bad thoughts and mental applications, they delight and grow the mind. You strike down, you destroy that growth of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. You cut off, you sever. You obstruct, you block. Therefore, the body also... It burns, the mind also burns. When the body burns, one feels bodily painful feeling. When the mind burns, one feels mental painful feeling. Did not the wanderer Māgaṇḍiya, reviling the Blessed One, say thus: 'The ascetic Gotama is a destroyer of beings'? This is the reason here, by which reason I say: 'Nibbāna is mixed with suffering.' "No, great king, Nibbāna is not mixed with suffering. Nibbāna is unalloyed happiness. But that which you, great king, say 'Nibbāna is suffering,' that is not suffering called Nibbāna. Rather, that is the preliminary part for the realization of Nibbāna, that is the seeking of Nibbāna. Nibbāna, great king, is indeed unalloyed happiness, not mixed with suffering. Here I will tell a reason. Is there, great king, a thing called the happiness of kingship?" "Yes, venerable sir, there is the happiness of kingship." "Now, great king, is that happiness of kingship mixed with suffering?" "No, venerable sir." "Then why, great king, when the border regions are agitated, do those kings, surrounded by ministers, leaders, soldiers, and forces, go on an expedition to suppress those who dwell in the border regions? Afflicted by gnats, mosquitoes, wind, and sun, they run over uneven ground, wage great battles, and encounter danger to life?" "That, venerable Nāgasena, is not the happiness of kingship itself. That is the preliminary part for seeking the happiness of kingship. With suffering, venerable Nāgasena, kings seek kingship and then experience the happiness of kingship. Thus, venerable Nāgasena, the happiness of kingship is unmixed with suffering. That happiness of kingship is one thing, the suffering is another." "Just so, great king, Nibbāna is unalloyed happiness, not mixed with suffering. But those who seek that Nibbāna, they torment body and mind, they restrict standing, walking, sitting, sleeping, and food, they suppress drowsiness, they afflict the sense bases, they sacrifice body and life, suffering having sought Nibbāna, they experience Nibbāna, which is absolute bliss, just as kings, having vanquished their enemies, experience the bliss of sovereignty. Thus, great king, Nibbāna is absolute bliss, not mixed with suffering; Nibbāna is one thing, suffering is another. Again, great king, listen to a further reason why Nibbāna is absolute bliss, not mixed with suffering; suffering is one thing, Nibbāna is another. Is there, great king, a bliss of skill for teachers who possess skills? Yes, venerable sir, there is a bliss of skill for teachers who possess skills. Is that bliss of skill, great king, mixed with suffering? No, venerable sir. But why, great king, do these teachers by saluting and rising for their teachers, by bringing water, sweeping the house, providing tooth-sticks and mouth-water, by receiving leftovers, anointing, bathing, and massaging the feet, by setting aside their own will and following the will of others, by sleeping in discomfort, by eating unwholesome food, afflict their bodies? That, venerable Nāgasena, is not the bliss of skill; that is the preliminary part of seeking skill. With suffering, venerable Nāgasena, teachers seek skill