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due to not being independent. One who is wicked, due to stinginess. One who is afflicted, due to retaliating affliction. One who is greedy, overcome by greed. One who is striving, due to achieving a goal, does not show honor. These twelve, O great king, do not show honor. And that chip, broken off by the collision of stones, in an unindicated direction, falling this way or that way, it fell at the feet of the Blessed One. “Just as, great king, fine, subtle, minute dust, struck by the force of the wind, without a fixed direction, scatters this way or that way, even so, great king, that chip, broken by the impact of the rock, without a fixed direction, falling this way or that way, fell at the feet of the Blessed One. If, great king, that chip had not separated from the rock, those rocks would have risen up and caught that rock chip. But this chip, great king, was neither on the ground nor in the sky; broken by the force of the rock's impact, without a fixed direction, falling this way or that way, it fell at the feet of the Blessed One. “Just as, great king, an old leaf, lifted by a whirlwind, falls this way or that way, without a fixed direction, even so, great king, this chip, by the force of the rock's impact, without a fixed direction, falling this way or that way, fell at the feet of the Blessed One. Moreover, great king, for the experience of suffering of the ungrateful, stingy Devadatta, the chip fell at the feet of the Blessed One.” “Excellent, venerable Nāgasena, I accept it as such.” The eighth question is about the chip that struck. 9. The Question of the Foremost Ascetic 9. “Venerable Nāgasena, this was spoken by the Blessed One: ‘By the destruction of the defilements, one is an ascetic.’ And again it was said: ‘Endowed with four qualities, that person, indeed, they call an ascetic in the world.’ Here are these four qualities: patience, little sustenance, abandonment of delight, and non-possession. All of these, however, belong to one whose defilements are not yet destroyed, who is still defiled. If, venerable Nāgasena, one is an ascetic by the destruction of the defilements, then the saying, ‘Endowed with four qualities, that person, indeed, they call an ascetic in the world,’ is false. If one is an ascetic by being endowed with four qualities, then the saying, ‘By the destruction of the defilements, one is an ascetic,’ is also false. This is a two-horned question for you to answer. then, that must be extinguished by you.” “This, great king, was spoken by the Blessed One: ‘By the destruction of the taints, one is a recluse.’ And again it was said: ‘One endowed with four qualities, that person indeed is called a recluse in the world.’ This, great king, statement was spoken with reference to the qualities of those individuals: ‘One endowed with four qualities, that person indeed is called a recluse in the world.’ But this is the complete statement: ‘By the destruction of the taints, one is a recluse.’ “Moreover, great king, whoever are practicing for the calming of defilements, all of them, by degrees, the recluse, the one with destroyed taints, is declared to be supreme. Just as, great king, whatever aquatic and terrestrial flowers there are, the jasmine is declared to be supreme among them. Whatever other various kinds of flowers there are, all those are indeed flowers, but by degrees, the jasmine flower alone is desired and longed for by people. Even so, great king, whoever are practicing for the calming of defilements, all of them, by degrees, the recluse, the one with destroyed taints, is declared to be supreme. “Or again, great king, among all grains, rice is declared to be supreme. Whatever other various kinds of grains there are, all those are, by degrees, foods for the sustenance of the body, but rice alone is declared to be supreme among them. Even so, great king, great king, whoever are practicing for the calming of defilements, all of them, by degrees, the recluse, the one with destroyed taints, is declared to be supreme.” “Excellent, venerable Nāgasena, I accept it as such.” The Ninth Question on the Foremost Recluse. 10. The Question on Praising 10. “Venerable Nāgasena, this was spoken by the Blessed One: ‘Monks, if others praise me, or praise the Dhamma, or praise the Saṅgha, then you should not feel joy, not feel delight, not feel elation of mind.’ And again, when the Tathāgata was being praised with true qualities by the brahmin Sela, he rejoiced, was delighted, elated, and further proclaimed his own qualities – “‘I am I am a king, Sela, The supreme Dhamma-king; By Dhamma I turn the wheel, A wheel that cannot be turned back. "If, venerable Nāgasena, the Blessed One said: 'Monks, if others praise me, or praise the Dhamma, or praise the Saṅgha, then you should not feel joy, not feel gladness, not feel your mind uplifted,' then that statement, that when the brahmin Sela spoke true praise, he rejoiced, was glad, was uplifted, and even further proclaimed his own qualities, that statement is false. If, when the brahmin Sela spoke true praise, he rejoiced, was glad, was uplifted, and even further proclaimed his own qualities, then that statement: 'Monks, if others praise me, or praise the Dhamma, or praise the Saṅgha, then you should not feel joy, not feel gladness, not feel your mind uplifted,' that too is false. This two-horned dilemma has come to you; it must be resolved by you." "This too, great king, was said by the Blessed One: 'Monks, if others praise me, or praise the Dhamma, or praise the Saṅgha, then you should not feel joy, not feel gladness, not feel your mind uplifted.' And when the brahmin Sela spoke true praise, he further proclaimed his own qualities: 'I am a king, Sela, The supreme Dhamma-king; By Dhamma I turn the wheel, A wheel that cannot be turned back.' Firstly, great king, the Blessed One, revealing the true, actual, real, and factual nature of the Dhamma, its inherent characteristic and essence, said: 'Monks, if others praise me, or praise the Dhamma, or praise the Saṅgha, then you should not feel joy, not feel gladness, not feel your mind uplifted.' But as for what the Blessed One, when the brahmin Sela spoke true praise... And when it was said, furthermore, his own quality was proclaimed: ‘I am a king, Sela, a supreme king of Dhamma.’ That was not for gain, not for fame, not for self, not for a party, not for discipleship, but out of compassion, out of pity, for their welfare, ‘Thus will be the realization of Dhamma for these three hundred young men.’ Thus, further, his own quality was declared: ‘I am a king, Sela, a supreme king of Dhamma.’ “Good, Venerable Nāgasena, I accept it as such.” The tenth question, on declaring qualities. 11. The question on Non-harming and Punishment. “Venerable Nāgasena, this was spoken by the Blessed One: ‘Not harming others in the world, you will be dear to me.’ And again it was said: ‘Punish those who deserve punishment, support those who deserve support.’ Punishment, Venerable Nāgasena, is cutting off hands, cutting off feet, slaughter, imprisonment, torture, killing, destroying a lineage. This statement is not fitting for the Blessed One, nor is the Blessed One worthy to utter such a statement. If, Venerable Nāgasena, the Blessed One said: ‘Not harming others in the world, you will be dear to me,’ then the statement: ‘Punish those who deserve punishment, support those who deserve support,’ is false. If the Tathāgata said: ‘Punish those who deserve punishment, support those who deserve support,’ then that statement: ‘Not harming others in the world, you will be dear to me,’ is also false. This two-horned question has come to you, it must be resolved by you.” “This was spoken, great king, by the Blessed One: ‘Not harming others in the world, you will be dear to me.’ And it was also said: ‘Punish those who deserve punishment, support those who deserve support.’ ‘Not harming others in the world, you will be dear to me’— this, great king, is approved by all Tathāgatas. This is the instruction, this is the teaching of Dhamma. For Dhamma, great king, is characterized by non-harming. This is a statement of its nature. But that which, great king, the Tathāgata said: ‘Punish those who deserve punishment— ‘You should restrain, you should uplift,’ this is a saying. The agitated mind, great king, should be restrained. The sluggish mind should be uplifted. The unwholesome mind should be restrained. The wholesome mind should be uplifted. Improper attention should be restrained. Proper attention should be uplifted. The one practicing wrongly should be restrained. The one practicing rightly should be uplifted. The ignoble one should be restrained. The noble one should be uplifted. The thief should be restrained. The non-thief should be uplifted.” “Very well, Venerable Nāgasena. Now you have returned to my domain. What I ask, that meaning has come to me. But how, Venerable Nāgasena, should a thief be restrained by one who restrains?” “A thief, great king, by one who restrains, should be restrained thus: He who deserves rebuke should be rebuked. He who deserves punishment should be punished. He who deserves banishment should be banished. He who deserves imprisonment should be imprisoned. He who deserves execution should be executed.” “But, Venerable Nāgasena, is the execution of thieves approved by the Tathāgatas?” “No, great king.” “Why then, is a thief who is instructed, approved by the Tathāgatas?” “He, great king, who is executed, is not executed by the approval of the Tathāgatas. He is executed by his own doing. But he is instructed by the teaching of the Dhamma. Moreover, great king, can you seize a man who has done no wrong, who is innocent, walking in the street, and execute him?” “No, Venerable sir.” “For what reason, great king?” “Because he has done no wrong, Venerable sir.” “Just so, great king, a thief is not killed by the approval of the Tathāgatas. He is killed by his own doing.