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there is the destruction of suffering; with the destruction of suffering, there is the destruction of feeling; with the destruction of feeling, all suffering will be worn away.’ And that pleases us and we accept it.” and, because of that, we are pleased.” 5. “When this was said, bhikkhus, I said to those Nigaṇṭhas: ‘Indeed, these five, friends Nigaṇṭhas, are phenomena with a twofold result in this very life. Which five? Faith, inclination, hearsay, reasoned consideration, and approval of a view – Indeed, these, friends Nigaṇṭhas, are the five phenomena with a twofold result in this very life. Regarding that, what is the venerable Nigaṇṭhas’ faith in a past teacher, what is their inclination, what is their hearsay, what is their reasoned consideration, what is their approval of a view?’ When I spoke thus, bhikkhus, I did not see any counter-argument in accordance with the Dhamma from the Nigaṇṭhas. Again, further, I, bhikkhus, said to those Nigaṇṭhas thus: ‘What do you think, friends Nigaṇṭhas? At what time for you is there intense exertion, intense striving, at that time do you experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; but at what time for you is there not intense exertion, not intense striving, at that time do you not experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion?’ ‘At what time for us, friend Gotama, is there intense exertion, intense striving, at that time we experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; but at what time for us is there not intense exertion, not intense striving, at that time we do not experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion.’ 6. ‘So then, friends Nigaṇṭhas, at what time for you is there intense exertion, intense striving, at that time you experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; but at what time for you is there not intense exertion, not intense striving, at that time you do not experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion. This being so, it is not fitting for the venerable Nigaṇṭhas to declare… Whatever this person experiences, be it pleasure or pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is due to past deeds. Thus, by the ascetic practice of old deeds becoming exhausted, by not doing new deeds, there is no influx in the future; with no influx in the future, there is the destruction of deeds; with the destruction of deeds, there is the destruction of suffering; with the destruction of suffering, there is the destruction of feeling; with the destruction of feeling, all suffering will be worn out. If, friends, Nigaṇṭhas, at whatever time you have intense exertion, intense striving, then at that time you would not experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; but at whatever time you have no intense exertion, no intense striving, then at that time you would experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; If this were so, then it would be proper for the venerable Nigaṇṭhas to declare: Whatever this person experiences, be it pleasure or pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is due to past deeds. Thus, by the ascetic practice of old deeds becoming exhausted, by not doing new deeds, there is no influx in the future; with no influx in the future, there is the destruction of deeds; with the destruction of deeds, there is the destruction of suffering; with the destruction of suffering, there is the destruction of feeling; with the destruction of feeling, all suffering will be worn out. But since, friends, Nigaṇṭhas, at whatever time you have intense exertion, intense striving, then at that time you *do* experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; but at whatever time you have no intense exertion, no intense striving, then at that time you *do not* experience intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion; you yourselves, experiencing these intense, painful, bitter feelings due to exertion, are deluded by ignorance, by lack of knowledge, by confusion, (when you declare): Whatever this person experiences, be it pleasure or pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is due to past deeds. Thus, old... by the destruction through asceticism of old kamma, by the non-doing of new kamma, there is no influx in the future; with no influx in the future, there is the destruction of kamma; with the destruction of kamma, there is the destruction of suffering; with the destruction of suffering, there is the destruction of feeling; with the destruction of feeling, all suffering will be worn out.' Even when they speak thus, bhikkhus, I do not see any sound counter-argument among the Nigaṇṭhas. 7. And again, bhikkhus, I say to those Nigaṇṭhas thus: 'What do you think, friends, Nigaṇṭhas? This kamma that is to be experienced in this very life, can it be made to be experienced in a future existence by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'But this kamma that is to be experienced in a future existence, can it be made to be experienced in this very life by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friends, Nigaṇṭhas? This kamma that is to be experienced as pleasant, can it be made to be experienced as painful by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'But this kamma that is to be experienced as painful, can it be made to be experienced as pleasant by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friends, Nigaṇṭhas? This kamma that is to be experienced when ripe, can it be made to be experienced when unripe by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'But this kamma that is to be experienced when unripe, can it be made to be experienced when ripe by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friends, Nigaṇṭhas? This kamma that is to be experienced extensively, can it be made to be experienced slightly by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'But this kamma that is to be experienced slightly, can it be made to be experienced extensively by effort or exertion?' 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friends, Nigaṇṭhas? This kamma that is to be experienced, can it by effort or ex... or by effort, may become non-experiential? Is this attainable? No, friend. But this action, which is non-experiential, by exertion or by effort, may become experiential? Is this attainable? No, friend. 8. So then, friends, Nigaṇṭhas, this action, which is experiential in this very life, by exertion or by effort, may become experiential in a future life— this is unattainable. And this action, which is experiential in a future life, by exertion or by effort, may become experiential in this very life— this is unattainable. This action, which is pleasurable to experience, by exertion or by effort, may become painful to experience— this is unattainable. This action, which is painful to experience, by exertion or by effort, may become pleasurable to experience— this is unattainable. This action, which is fully ripened to experience, by exertion or by effort, may become unripened to experience— this is unattainable. This action, which is unripened to experience, by exertion or by effort, may become fully ripened to experience— this is unattainable. This action, which is much to experience, by exertion or by effort, may become little to experience— this is unattainable. This action, which is little to experience, by exertion or by effort, may become much to experience— this is unattainable. This action, which is experiential, by exertion or by effort, may become non-experiential— this is unattainable. This action, which is non-experiential, by exertion or by effort, may become experiential— this is unattainable. Such being the case, the exertion of the venerable Nigaṇṭhas is fruitless, their effort is fruitless. Thus speaking, bhikkhus, are the Nigaṇṭhas. For Nigaṇṭhas who speak thus, bhikkhus, ten points of dispute, consistent with the Dhamma, lead to a blameworthy position. 9. If, bhikkhus, beings experience pleasure and pain due to past actions; then surely, bhikkhus, the Nigaṇṭhas were doers of evil deeds in the past, since they now experience such painful, sharp, bitter feelings. If If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to creation by a lord; then, monks, the Nigaṇṭhas are surely created by an evil lord, since they now experience such painful, sharp, bitter feelings. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to association; then, monks, the Nigaṇṭhas are surely of evil association, since they now experience such painful, sharp, bitter feelings. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to birth; then, monks, the Nigaṇṭhas are surely of evil birth, since they now experience such painful, sharp, bitter feelings. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to effort in this very life; then, monks, the Nigaṇṭhas are surely of such effort in this very life, since they now experience such painful, sharp, bitter feelings. "If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to past deeds, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy; if beings do not experience pleasure and pain due to past deeds, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to creation by a lord, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy; if beings do not experience pleasure and pain due to creation by a lord, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to association, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy; if beings do not experience pleasure and pain due to association, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to birth, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy; if beings do not experience pleasure and pain due to birth, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy. If, monks, beings experience pleasure and pain due to effort in this very life, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy; if beings do not experience pleasure and pain due to effort in this very life, the Nigaṇṭhas are blameworthy. Thus speaking, monks, are the Nigaṇṭhas. For Nigaṇṭhas thus speaking, monks, these ten together with